God and Evil

Unfortunately evil cannot be "thrown away." Evil acts constitute part of our history and they are there to stay.

The gross shortcoming of the theodicy of redemptive suffering -- that "shadows are needed to set off highlights" -- is that if God is really all-powerful, he is not forced to take these painful routes toward the creation of "perfectly good" experiences.

And if God IS forced to use evil to create good, or is even inclined to do so, his omnipotence and omnibenevolence are rendered less than cosmic.

Maybe for now, but assuredly NOT beyond:

Isaiah 65:17

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Says WHO? Suffering appears to have its Divine Place.

Again, so says WHO? Superiority over ALL THINGS puts nothing out of HIS Overwhelming...

I might believe a God who can make good come of evil or make same serve Him would be pretty cool.

Good response! But even if people don't remember an atrocity, I'm not convinced forgetfulness truly nullifies the horror. As a historical event it's locked into place and unalterable.

Perhaps you will permit me to rephrase. All monotheistic religions struggle to understand the current existence of a binary or dualistic system, namely "good and evil." This is a fundamental problem with formal monotheism, and in an important sense is a contradiction in terms. Why would God permit his polar opposite to be created?

So that a world of already total and unanimous goodness might become... more good? But isn't that a contradiction?

So God is NOT forced to use evil to create good.

Then he chooses to create evil, in effect, to slice the world in two, in order to create good. But the best possible good already existed, didn't it?

Granted, the rationalizing side of theodicy has its limits -- I'd be the first to admit it -- but it helps us understand why systems of theology have taken certain avenues and been forced to take certain others.

I'm not trying to disprove anything -- I merely wish to point out the issues that Christian thinkers wrestle with every day. You seem to be saying that it's an easy fix, that there is no real difficulty but only one illusory and fabricated, but in fact, the millions of people pulling their hair out every day suggest otherwise.

I believe that a God who comes and suffers with me IS pretty cool

I also think that's much truer to the gospel than speculations based on God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

Scripture tells us that suffering does serve many purposes. As Isaiah noted and even as Paul notes here, when we actually 'see' the future produce, this is how we will view these matters:

Romans 8:18

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

I sometimes use a very basic explanation, because I'm a big road cycle guy. Do you know that to handle a large motorcycle on the road when turning right, that you actually turn the wheel to the opposite direction?

There are many contradictory functions in the text, and many of them when first encountered don't seem to make any sense whatsoever, just like turning a big Harley to the right means turning left. But it's a solid fact.

When the flower is plucked from the turd and the flower set upon the table, the turd discarded is not even thought of any longer. When we look at the flower we could care less where it came from because of its' sheer beauty. Yet that flower was nourished by discarded crap.

So it is with evil.

Well, I suspect that He could have made a flower pop up out of thin air, but that may not be nearly as much fun eh?

God LOVES 'judgment.' IF He has chosen to deploy LOVE into the midst of a very real resistance to 'test' same, what are we to say of it?

If the result of creation was merely to 'replicate' Himself, I mean really? Is there some point in that? No need to have multiple reflections of the SAME PERFECTION.

In this context I could imagine that soooo many things could be tested and deployed along the lines of eternity that various scenarios that are well beyond my imaginations could be in store in the ages to come.

As you may tell, I have very little respect for 'old school' orthodoxy. They were developed primarily as social control systems. Very manipulative imho. And closed minded? uh, yeah. It's just a much more interesting field than those old school erection sets have provided for us. I could go on, but outside the topic matters herein. I will say that IF we are examining Gods Words we may have to give them as much respect as we do the term 'ETERNITY.' There is a LOT more there than we can presently see. So, I keep studying and keep reading. It's just a most fascinating document.

When people try to make certain cut and locked positions, such as GOD CANNOT CREATE EVIL or He IS evil, that is just nonsense. Petty logic can get by that one in an instant. Yet we have millions of orthodoxy who hold that position til their dying breath, and will continue to do so.

We think alot alike.

Dude, I LOVE paradoxical truth. I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate, pointing out the "solid facts" that MAKE it paradoxical.

Too bad we have to say turd on CF and not [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth].

Try to comfort someone in pain that God could have done everything perfectly without making them suffer, but thought that this route might be more amusing

But the question is, WHY could ANY of them require a world plagued by evil for the length and breadth of human history, if GOD is "omnipotent" and "omnibenevolent"????

To this effect, I like the Matrix's take on things. We fight to the death to escape one system of control, only to find ourselves smack dab in another one. A bit cynical, I suppose, but it seems to be accurate. I've started to assume that I'm ALWAYS been controlled and manipulated, even if I'm not aware of it.

I'm not trying to create a locked position. Nor do I believe that God is EVIL just because he created or is responsible for the creation of evil.

However, I do think that it is a philosophical problem commonly called "theodicy" (literally, the justification of God) and it is EXACTLY what we are wrestling with right now. Even Paul realized it, otherwise he would not have needed to remind the Roman Christians that their present suffering was outweighed by the "pie in the sky" promise of fortune and glory.

You're probably a bit older and wiser than me, that's the main difference.

Now, natural evil, such as the disasters in Haiti, offer a much stiffer challenge to Christian belief...

God did not bring evil into existence because, quite simply, "evil" has no ontological existence to speak of (e.g., does not belong to the category of that which is created). Evil is not a "thing" that can be quantified or objectified, as if it were a pile of rocks, a cluster of galaxies, or a double-quarter-pounder with cheese.

Evil is nothing more than the negation of the good. We understand the concept of evil only insofar as it is the diminution of that which is good--that which is divine.

But please understand: evil is not the opposite of the "good," as if this collection of objective realities are one manner of "thing" and this collection is another and can be understood as equal, albeit, contradictory realities. No, evil, has no such existence and can only be spoken of insofar as we speak of the diminution of that which is good. The moment we cease to speak of the good is the moment in which the linguistic value of "evil" fails to have any coherent meaning.