Body or Spirit?

The Gregorian · #1 30th September 2009, 07:52 AM

So, sometimes the topic of Jesus' sacrifice comes up in these conversations. People often refer to how Jesus "defeated death" by raising himself from the dead. Personally, I point out that, while yes, Jesus said that "they would destroy the temple, and 3 days later, he would rebuild it" ... but everywhere else in the bible, it seems to say that his Father resurrected him... not himself.

Now, the above could be topic for a big enough debate, but I'd like to focus in a little more on one particular aspect real quick:

If we believe our sins are paid for through Jesus' sacrifice... Do you believe he actually died? By that, I mean, was he ever "Dead?"

Sounds silly, but most people I talk to state that Jesus' body was dead for three days, but Jesus himself lived on. That his soul never died, only his body.

So, then is "Jesus" our messiah? Or, is it simply his human body we put our faith in? Was it only his "Body" that died? Or did his spirit/soul die as well?

I'd like people to consider the following verses as they respond:

Matthew 20:28: "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto , but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
(note, the word here translated as "life" is "psuche," which means "the soul or inner self which transcends physical life and is the seat of intellect, emotion, and will. "Psuche" is translated as "soul" 59 times in the KJV, but not here.)

Matthew 27:50: "And Jesus gave another loud cry, and gave up his spirit."
(Note, the word here translated as "gave up" is also translated as "yield" or "forfeit" in other translations. "Aphiemi" does not mean he "handed his spirit upwards" ... but that he "gave it up" ... he forfeited his very spirit.)

Mark 15:27: "And Jesus gave a loud cry, and gave up his spirit."
(oddly enough, different wording is used here. The original text use the word "ekpneo," which means to "expire." No words are used for "give up his spirit/ghost" as the KJV, and BBE state. The NIV says "Jesus breathed his last." ... but again, the original text reads that Jesus "expired." Either way, no translation points to Jesus "forfeiting his body, but living on."

The accounts in Luke and John read similarly to the ones in Matthew and Mark. But, all agree that he forfeited his Spirit/Soul for us. His "pneuma," and "psuche."

So... Did Jesus sacrifice a human body for us? Or, did he forfeit his very spirit?

Albion · #2 30th September 2009, 12:09 PM

ANYONE who can suffer physical death and be alive physically a couple of days later is "overcoming death" if you ask me. If Jesus was the only person to do that, the point is made IMO, whether or not the Father was involved. As for giving up his "spirit," that means giving up the lifeforce that all living being possess temporarily--even animals--not his immortal self. You own discussion of the matter points to this.

The Gregorian · #3 30th September 2009, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by Albion

ANYONE who can suffer physical death and be alive physically a couple of days later is "overcoming death" if you ask me. If Jesus was the only person to do that, the point is made IMO, whether or not the Father was involved. As for giving up his "spirit," that means giving up the lifeforce that all living being possess temporarily--even animals--not his immortal self. You own discussion of the matter points to this.

When Jesus resurrected Lazarus... was it "Lazarus" that defeated death? Or, was it Jesus that called Lazarus back to life?

Also, what makes you say that it's the temporary life force instead of the immortal self? Jesus is said to forfeit his "psuche" and his "pneuma" for us. Do you not think these translate to "soul" and "spirit." Here's an interlinear for you to see for yourself:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/mat20.pdf
(using the word "psuche")
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/mat27.pdf
(using the word "pneuma")

There's a literal translation under each word, plus you can double-check this with a host of online translators, or you can google the words, and there are plenty of articles specifically written on the meaning of each of those words. Or, if you can track someone down who's formally studied greek, I encourage you to ask them.

For example, here's an article on the word "psuche" BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: SAVE YOUR SOUL, LOSE YOUR SOUL = A BIBLICALPERSPECTIVE

Do you have any references to suggest that psuche, and pneuma would mean only one's physical body?

Albion · #4 1st October 2009, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Also, what makes you say that it's the temporary life force

I didn't say "temporary life force." What I wrote was "giving up the lifeforce...temporarily."

When Jesus resurrected Lazarus... was it "Lazarus" that defeated death? Or, was it Jesus that called Lazarus back to life?

I see the point you are making, but I don't see how the two events can be considered comparable. What caused Lazarus' death? Did he intend for it to happen, and if so, for what purpose? What did he do after his reanimation? You see that the two are quite different, although I concede to you that Lazarus did come back from the dead.

MrBojangles · #5 1st October 2009, 10:08 PM

I remembered this while I was reading:

Isaiah 53
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

So, sometimes the topic of Jesus' sacrifice comes up in these conversations. People often refer to how Jesus "defeated death" by raising himself from the dead. Personally, I point out that, while yes, Jesus said that "they would destroy the temple, and 3 days later, he would rebuild it" ... but everywhere else in the bible, it seems to say that his Father resurrected him... not himself.

Now, the above could be topic for a big enough debate, but I'd like to focus in a little more on one particular aspect real quick:

If we believe our sins are paid for through Jesus' sacrifice... Do you believe he actually died? By that, I mean, was he ever "Dead?"

Sounds silly, but most people I talk to state that Jesus' body was dead for three days, but Jesus himself lived on. That his soul never died, only his body.

So, then is "Jesus" our messiah? Or, is it simply his human body we put our faith in? Was it only his "Body" that died? Or did his spirit/soul die as well?

I'd like people to consider the following verses as they respond:

Matthew 20:28: "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto , but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
(note, the word here translated as "life" is "psuche," which means "the soul or inner self which transcends physical life and is the seat of intellect, emotion, and will. "Psuche" is translated as "soul" 59 times in the KJV, but not here.)

Matthew 27:50: "And Jesus gave another loud cry, and gave up his spirit."
(Note, the word here translated as "gave up" is also translated as "yield" or "forfeit" in other translations. "Aphiemi" does not mean he "handed his spirit upwards" ... but that he "gave it up" ... he forfeited his very spirit.)

Mark 15:27: "And Jesus gave a loud cry, and gave up his spirit."
(oddly enough, different wording is used here. The original text use the word "ekpneo," which means to "expire." No words are used for "give up his spirit/ghost" as the KJV, and BBE state. The NIV says "Jesus breathed his last." ... but again, the original text reads that Jesus "expired." Either way, no translation points to Jesus "forfeiting his body, but living on."

The accounts in Luke and John read similarly to the ones in Matthew and Mark. But, all agree that he forfeited his Spirit/Soul for us. His "pneuma," and "psuche."

So... Did Jesus sacrifice a human body for us? Or, did he forfeit his very spirit?

The Gregorian · #6 1st October 2009, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Albion

I didn't say "temporary life force." What I wrote was "giving up the lifeforce...temporarily."

I see. So you agree that Jesus' actual soul died, but that it was temporary? Do you believe he resurrected his own soul, or did the Father resurrect his soul?

What caused Lazarus' death? Did he intend for it to happen, and if so, for what purpose? What did he do after his reanimation? You see that the two are quite different, although I concede to you that Lazarus did come back from the dead.

Not saying that Lazarus is a messiah by any means, but they were both "asleep in death" and had to be resurrected by someone else. To say that Jesus "defeated death" by being resurrected by his Father would mean that Lazarus "defeated death" first.

2ducklow · #7 1st October 2009, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

So, sometimes the topic of Jesus' sacrifice comes up in these conversations. People often refer to how Jesus "defeated death" by raising himself from the dead. Personally, I point out that, while yes, Jesus said that "they would destroy the temple, and 3 days later, he would rebuild it" ... but everywhere else in the bible, it seems to say that his Father resurrected him... not himself.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

(Rotherham) John 14:10 Believest thou not, that, I, am in the Father, and, the Father, is, in me? The things which I am saying unto you, from myself, I speak not; but, the Father, within me abiding, doeth his works.

Jesus spoke not the words "I will raise it up" god the Father abiding in Jesus did.

promlem solved, no problemo.

The Gregorian · #8 1st October 2009, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by 2ducklow

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

(Rotherham) John 14:10 Believest thou not, that, I, am in the Father, and, the Father, is, in me? The things which I am saying unto you, from myself, I speak not; but, the Father, within me abiding, doeth his works.

Jesus spoke not the words "I will raise it up" god the Father abiding in Jesus did.

"abiding" in a dead soul? How do you suppose that works?

Personally, this is how I see it: 1- Jesus sacrifices himself willingly to pay for our sins... and dies. Body, soul and all. 2- He's entombed. 3- Three days later, his Father resurrects him to his pre-human spiritual form (explaining why his followers do not recognize him, and how he walks around with wounds that were fatal to his mortal body). 4- With Jesus again alive in spiritual form, he "raises the temple" by showing himself in a physical form to his desciples for a while before returning to heaven.

It's not so far off from the mainstream idea... it's just most people skip step 3. Most teach that his body died, but his soul never died... leaving him in a spiritual form capable of rebuilding his physical body (per step 4). However, this disagrees with scriptures in two ways. A- That Jesus forfeited his very soul for us, and was therefore not alive to resurrect himself. And B- His Father was the one to resurrect his soul... rather than him simply "living through his own death."

2ducklow · #9 2nd October 2009, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

"abiding" in a dead soul? How do you suppose that works?

I'm not getting your drift. If you're saying did God the father abide in Jesus when he was dead, I don't know, scripture as far as I know says nothingabout that. If you mean did God speak out of a dead Jesus, no God spake out of a live Jesus those words I quoted from scripture. If you mean god always dwells in Jesus even when dead so how could it be that god would raise Jesus from inside a dead Jesus, well god is everywhere, and I don't know if he indwelt a dead soul or a dead body or if god indwelt Jesus soul or body when Jesus was alive. scripture just says God dwelled in Jesus, my church teaches that the spirit
of a person indwells a persons lungs, and the soul is in the blood of a person. they have scripture for those beliefs, but I think it's not a clear thing from scripture. Life is in the blood, and the grreek and heb. word for spirit is wind are the two reasons I recall.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Originally Posted by gregorian

Personally, this is how I see it: 1- Jesus sacrifices himself willingly to pay for our sins... and dies. Body, soul and all. 2- He's entombed. 3- Three days later, his Father resurrects him to his pre-human spiritual form (explaining why his followers do not recognize him, and how he walks around with wounds that were fatal to his mortal body). 4- With Jesus again alive in spiritual form, he "raises the temple" by showing himself in a physical form to his desciples for a while before returning to heaven.

It's not so far off from the mainstream idea... it's just most people skip step 3. Most teach that his body died, but his soul never died... leaving him in a spiritual form capable of rebuilding his physical body (per step 4). However, this disagrees with scriptures in two ways. A- That Jesus forfeited his very soul for us, and was therefore not alive to resurrect himself. And B- His Father was the one to resurrect his soul... rather than him simply "living through his own death."

well that's certainly different than my belief. I believe Jesus died like all men die, that his soul went to the paradise section of hades where he preached to the souls that did not go all the way with Noah,and that when his body was resurrected his soul was reunited with his glorified body. HIs glorified body is different than his pre death body. His glorified body cannot die, but of course his pre death body could and did die. I believe it wasn't Jesus death on the cross that paid for our sins, not directly, but it was his agreement with god to go to the lake of fire,and suffer the second death for all eternity that paid the price for our sins. and that Jesus was on his way to eternal damnation but god would not allow his sinless son to go that far and considered Jesus agreement to suffer our second death good as gold, good as if he had actually done it, and snatched Jesus out of the second death before it occured. I don't believe in a pre exiistant christ because scriptue says god foreknew ?Christ and you can't foreknow someone who already exists. you can only foreknow someone who doesnt existt.

Rotherham) 1 Peter 1:20 Foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but made manifest at a last stage of the times, for the sake of you

most bibles just change the greek word foreknown to foreordained beause foreknown destroys their prexistant christ doctrine so they just change scirptue to fit their doctrine.
the greek word in no way means foreordained. foreordained is an entriely different greek word. you can't trust bible translators, they flat out lie somtimes. their false doctrines makes them do it. I'm sure they have some mental jsutification for it, but hey so do murderers.

Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) 1 Peter 1:20 proegnwsmenou <4267> (5772) {HAVING BEEN FOREKNOWN} men <3303> {INDEED} pro <4253> {BEFORE [THE]} katabolhV <2602> {FOUNDATION} kosmou <2889> {OF [THE] WORLD,} fanerwqentoV <5319> (5685) de <1161> {BUT MANIFESTED} ep <1909> {AT} escatwn <2078> twn <3588> {[THE] LAST} cronwn <5550> {TIMES} di <1223> {FOR THE SAKE OF} umaV <5209> {YOU,}

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Simonline · #10 6th October 2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

So, sometimes the topic of Jesus' sacrifice comes up in these conversations. People often refer to how Jesus "defeated death" by raising himself from the dead. Personally, I point out that, while yes, Jesus said that "they would destroy the temple, and 3 days later, he would rebuild it" ... but everywhere else in the bible, it seems to say that his Father resurrected him... not himself.

Now, the above could be topic for a big enough debate, but I'd like to focus in a little more on one particular aspect real quick:

If we believe our sins are paid for through Jesus' sacrifice... Do you believe he actually died? By that, I mean, was he ever "Dead?"

Sounds silly, but most people I talk to state that Jesus' body was dead for three days, but Jesus himself lived on. That his soul never died, only his body.

So, then is "Jesus" our messiah? Or, is it simply his human body we put our faith in? Was it only his "Body" that died? Or did his spirit/soul die as well?

I'd like people to consider the following verses as they respond:

Matthew 20:28: "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto , but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
(note, the word here translated as "life" is "psuche," which means "the soul or inner self which transcends physical life and is the seat of intellect, emotion, and will. "Psuche" is translated as "soul" 59 times in the KJV, but not here.)

Matthew 27:50: "And Jesus gave another loud cry, and gave up his spirit."
(Note, the word here translated as "gave up" is also translated as "yield" or "forfeit" in other translations. "Aphiemi" does not mean he "handed his spirit upwards" ... but that he "gave it up" ... he forfeited his very spirit.)

Mark 15:27: "And Jesus gave a loud cry, and gave up his spirit."
(oddly enough, different wording is used here. The original text use the word "ekpneo," which means to "expire." No words are used for "give up his spirit/ghost" as the KJV, and BBE state. The NIV says "Jesus breathed his last." ... but again, the original text reads that Jesus "expired." Either way, no translation points to Jesus "forfeiting his body, but living on."

The accounts in Luke and John read similarly to the ones in Matthew and Mark. But, all agree that he forfeited his Spirit/Soul for us. His "pneuma," and "psuche."

So... Did Jesus sacrifice a human body for us? Or, did he forfeit his very spirit?

The Son existing as the Divine Creator YHWH did not die (since He is Immortal) but the Son existing as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth did die (since he is mortal). The Messiah, existing as human, was resurrected by the one Tri-Personal God [Father, Son and Holy Spirit].

Simonline.