Body or Spirit?

The Gregorian · #21 14th October 2009, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Simonline

No. I believe that the Person of the Son, existing as human, died whilst He did NOT die Existing as Divine. To fractionalize His Person Existing as both Infinitely Divine and finitely human is impertinent. In this context it cannot (should not) be done.

So you don't even accept that HE became a human at all? He only created a secondary human version of himself, which could live or die independent of his "real" form? Therefore, wouldn't the presence of a fourth person of the trinity mean... while a new "human/Jesus" existed, it would be a quadrity? Also, if you believe the "divine Jesus" never died... but the Jesus that DID die was resurrected, correct? So, is there not still a "divine Jesus" and a "resurrected man-Jesus," in addition to the Father and Son?

Or, do you reject the idea that the one that died was resurrected?

Here's the thing. If you believe Jesus existed as a divine being independantly from his existance as a human... and that one of him can die without the other dying... how do you suggest that both beings were the same being? Do you believe his human body was just a fake human, and Jesus was steering him by celestial remote control? If so, how did this fake human "give up it's soul and spirit" for us?
[quote]No, we don't because the human creature Jesus of Nazareth did NOT sacrifice His body at all. The Son, existing as a tri-partite human creature (body, soul and spirit (Heb.2:14-17)), sacrificed Himself. [quote]
This seems contradictory... can you try to explain this again? Are you suggesting that Jesus of Nazareth was not the Son of God?

That's because there is more to the Person of the Son than just His finite existence as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth. The Son existing as the finite human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, sacrificed Himself but the Son Existing as the Divine Creator, YHWH, as Immutable, is NOT capable of sacrificing Himself (which is precisely why He has had to incarnate as a human creature in the first place (1Jn.4:1-3)).

So, you're suggesting that Jesus of Nazareth was just a normal human, but he was being possessed by God his whole life, then driven to sacrifice himself, while God safely escaped harm?

....wow

The Gregorian · #22 14th October 2009, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by Simonline

Yes, I both believe and affirm emphatically and unequivocally that the Son existing as the finite human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, sacrificed Himself entire (body soul and spirit) insofar as it was possible to sacrifice Himself as human (something that it is NOT possible for Him to do Existing as the Infinite Divine Creator (Mal.3:6)).

Which, I could agree with in a way. I believe the Father, YHWH, is not capable of death. And, is infinite. Which is why he sent his Son (the Son, the Word/lamb) to become human and sacrifice himself. 3 days later, the Father raised the Son back to life.

Seems simple enough.

But, if you're suggesting that YHWH came to earth to be Jesus... Why would you separate it out that only the Son came to be Jesus? Seems like you're going back and forth between unitarianism and modelism.

Simonline · #23 15th October 2009, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

So you don't even accept that HE became a human at all? He only created a secondary human version of himself, which could live or die independent of his "real" form?

Nonsense, of course I believe that the Son/Word/Memre incarnated as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth. If YHWH only created a finite human version of Himself then the Messiah would, by definition, be just a regular human creature and therefore included 'in Adam' as a sinner (Rom.3:9-18)?! The very idea is absurd. The Messiah is Emmanuel - 'God with us' (Matt.1:23) the human incarnation of YHWH. Nevertheless, only existing as finitely human is the Son/Word/Memre capable of experiencing death (i.e. separation from Life (Jn.14:6) - If Death is separation from Life then where does Life Himself go to Die?!

Further more, it cannot be true that the human incarnation of the Divine Creator is capable of either living or dying independent of the Divine Creator Himself?! The coming into being ex nihilo and continued existence of the entire Creation is contingent upon the good pleasure of the Divine Creator. Absolutely nothing either lives or dies except according to the Eternal fiat of the Divine Creator since that is the essential Nature of Absolute Reality (Col.1:15-16).

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Therefore, wouldn't the presence of a fourth person of the trinity mean... while a new "human/Jesus" existed, it would be a quadrity?

Again, nonsense. Any finite spacio-temporal creature (including the Messiah) is, by definition, precluded from the Tri-Personal Divine Creator by dint of existing as finite spacio-temporal. The Divine Creator is Infinite, Eternal and Immutable. Anyone/anything that isn't already the Infinite Divine Creator has absolutely no chance of ever becoming the Infinite Divine Creator. It's as simple as that. Jesus of Nazareth is a finite human creature and not the Infinite Divine Creator. Nevertheless, He is still the human incarnation of the Infinite Divine Creator (Matt.1:23; 1Jn.4:1-3)

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Also, if you believe the "divine Jesus" never died... but the Jesus that DID die was resurrected, correct?

No. the idea of a 'Divine human creature' is an ontological absurdity in the same way that the idea of a 'human Divine Creator' is an ontological absurdity?!

What I believe is that the Divine Creator did NOT die because, as the Divine Creator, He is incapable of experiencing Death (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17) If Death is separation from Life then where does Life Himself (Jn.14:6) go to die?

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

So, is there not still a "divine Jesus" and a "resurrected man-Jesus," in addition to the Father and Son?

The mind boggles?!

Who do you think that it is who has incarnated as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth (Matt.1:23; 1Jn.4:1-3)?! The One Who has incarnated is the Second Person (i.e. the Son/Word/Memre) of the One Infinite, Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH. That means that, as a direct result of the Incarnation, the Second Person now simultaneously exists as the Infinite Divine Creator and a finite human creature. As the Infinite Divine Creator He is Eternal whilst as the finite human creature He is, by comparison, only everlasting. As the Infinite Divine Creator the Person is YHWH but as the finite human creature the same Person is, comparatively, only Jesus of Nazareth.

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Or, do you reject the idea that the one that died was resurrected?

Were I to believe that then I would be rejecting the Divine Revelation that is Scripture (Rom.1:4)?!

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Here's the thing. If you believe Jesus existed as a divine being independantly from his existance as a human... and that one of him can die without the other dying... how do you suggest that both beings were the same being?

I don't believe that 'Jesus existed as a divine being independently from his existance as a human... and that one of him can die without the other dying' since that is an ontological absurdity.

The human creature Jesus of Nazareth CANNOT ontologically be identical with the Divine Creator YHWH?! The Person can be identical but the modes of Existence CANNOT.

In the context of the Incarnation, the Son/Word/Memre (the Second Person of the Divine Creator, YHWH) simultaneously exists as both Divine Creator and human creature but the way in which He Exists as Divine Creator is, of necessity, totally different to the way that He exists as a finite human creature.

Thus 'both beings (Divine Creator and human creature)' are NOT the 'same being' (Divine creature/human Creator = ontological absurdity)?!

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Do you believe his human body was just a fake human, and Jesus was steering him by celestial remote control? If so, how did this fake human "give up it's soul and spirit" for us?

Again, the mind boggles?!

I do not believe that the Messiah is just a finite human creature or even a finite human corpse 'magically manipulated' by 'remote control'?! I believe, in accordance with the Divine Revelation that is Scripture that the Messiah is the human incarnation (Jesus of Nazareth) of the Divine Creator, YHWH (Matt.1:23; 1Jn.4:1-3)

Originally Posted by Simonline

No, we don't because the human creature Jesus of Nazareth did NOT sacrifice His body at all. The Son, existing as a tri-partite human creature (body, soul and spirit (Heb.2:14-17)), sacrificed Himself.

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

This seems contradictory... can you try to explain this again? Are you suggesting that Jesus of Nazareth was not the Son of God?

The One Who has incarnated as the finite human creature, Jesus of Nazareth is NOT the finite human creature Jesus of Nazareth but the Infinite Divine Creator, YHWH (specifically the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH - the Son/Word/Memre) and the fact that you insist on refering to Him (i.e. the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH - the Son/Word/Memre) only as Jesus (i.e. the finite human creature) is what is confusing you to high heaven?!

What I am saying is NOT that the human creature Jesus of Nazareth was 'not' the 'Son of God' (i.e. the human incarnation of the Divine Creator, YHWH) but rather that human creature Jesus of Nazareth is NOT the Divine Creator YHWH (since, of necessity, the two CANNOT ontologically be identical - God CANNOT exist as a human creature and no human can exist as the Divine Creator (which is precisely why the Divine Creator has had to incarnate as a human creature in the first place (1Jn.4:1-3))?!

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

So, you're suggesting that Jesus of Nazareth was just a normal human, but he was being possessed by God his whole life, then driven to sacrifice himself, while God safely escaped harm?

....wow

Absolutely not! Adoptionism is a blasphemous heresy and as such is anathema.

What I am saying is that the Messiah is an absolutely authentic finite human creature (Heb.2:14-17) albeit an absolutely sinless one. However, what I am also saying is that the Messiah is not just an authentic finite human creature. He is first and foremost the Infinite, Eternal and Immutable Divine Creator YHWH and only in a secondary sense does He now (as a direct result of the Incarnation) also exist as the finite human creature, Jesus of Nazareth (same Person but different modes of ontological existence - see my signature).

Simonline.

Simonline · #24 15th October 2009, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Which, I could agree with in a way. I believe the Father, YHWH, is not capable of death. And, is infinite. Which is why he sent his Son (the Son, the Word/lamb) to become human and sacrifice himself. 3 days later, the Father raised the Son back to life.

Seems simple enough.

Simple, but wrong.

YHWH Exists as Tri-Personal (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) NOT Mono-Personal (the Father/or the Son/or the Holy Spirit alone). Thus, ALL THREE PERSONS, as the One Infinite Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH, are, by Nature, Immortal (Mal.3:6) and, like I said, if Death is separation from Life (Jn.14:6) then where does the Infinite Omnipresent Life Himself go to die?

The Messiah, existing as the dead finite human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, was resurrected not by the Father alone but by the One Infinite Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] alone.

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

But, if you're suggesting that YHWH came to earth to be Jesus...

Now you're getting it...

...actually, what I am saying, in accordance with the Divine Revelation that is the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, is that YHWH [specifically the Second Person - the Son/Word/Memre] has incarnated in order to exist as a finite human creature (Jesus of Nazareth) so that he can live, die and be resurrected in order to reconcile His Creation back to Himself (something that He CANNOT do as the Infinite Divine Creator) Acts.20:28(b).

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Why would you separate it out that only the Son came to be Jesus? Seems like you're going back and forth between unitarianism and modelism.

Are you seriously suggesting that all Three Persons [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] should incarnate as a single schizophrenic(?!) human creature?! Since God has already created humans to exist as mono-personal rather than Tri-Personal (Gen.1:26-27) then no-one would have taken the Messiah seriously as a human creature since He certainly would not have been 'made like His brothers in every way' (Heb.2:14-17)?!

The reason why I insist that only the Son has incarnated as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth is because that is what the Scriptures reveal. God is Tri-Personal in Nature, not 'Mono-Personal' and neither is he 'Mono-Personally modalistic'.

Simonline.

SoldierOfTheKing · #25 26th October 2009, 04:01 PM

YHWH became a man.
He died on the cross.
God the Father raised Him.

jpark43 · #26 2nd November 2009, 08:45 PM

John 19:30 And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Ecclesiastes 8:8 No one has the power over the spirit to retain the spirit, and no one has power in the day of death.

Luke 22:53 "When I was with you daily in the temple, you did not try to seize Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Psalm 90:3 You turn man to destruction, and say, "Return, O children of men."

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.' " Having said this, He breathed His last.

Jesus gave up His spirit, breath of life. Jesus died.

The Gregorian · #27 3rd November 2009, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Simonline

Again, nonsense. Any finite spacio-temporal creature (including the Messiah) is, by definition, precluded from the Tri-Personal Divine Creator by dint of existing as finite spacio-temporal. The Divine Creator is Infinite, Eternal and Immutable. Anyone/anything that isn't already the Infinite Divine Creator has absolutely no chance of ever becoming the Infinite Divine Creator. It's as simple as that. Jesus of Nazareth is a finite human creature and not the Infinite Divine Creator. Nevertheless, He is still the human incarnation of the Infinite Divine Creator (Matt.1:23; 1Jn.4:1-3)

So, you don't believe that Jesus actually WAS the son, but was "an incarnation" of the son, while the son remained in heaven? Essentially, that Jesus was an avatar of the Son... a representative, but not the Son himself.

If this was simply an incarnation of the Son, but not the Son himself... upon Jesus' baptism, why would the voice from heaven say "This is my son, the beloved, whom I have approved."

Why would this voice not say "This is a physical representative of my Son, even though he is still up here with me, but I still love it, and approve it."

What I believe is that the Divine Creator did NOT die because, as the Divine Creator, He is incapable of experiencing Death (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17) If Death is separation from Life then where does Life Himself (Jn.14:6) go to die?

I agree with this.

Who do you think that it is who has incarnated as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth (Matt.1:23; 1Jn.4:1-3)?! The One Who has incarnated is the Second Person (i.e. the Son/Word/Memre) of the One Infinite, Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH.

I believe the Son actually came/was sent... therefore went FROM his existance in heaven TO earth. I don't think Jesus was a new creation. I also don't see any reason to suggest that the Son is a "tri-personal divine creator" ... for me there is only one God, the Father (1 cor 8:6). Jesus/the Son is my messiah, lord, and greatest role model, but he is still a fellow-servant (Rev 22:9) with me.

Would you mind actually defining what is a "Person" vs. a "Being" vs. a "Nature?"

2ducklow · #28 4th November 2009, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

I believe the Son actually came/was sent... therefore went FROM his existance in heaven TO earth. I don't think Jesus was a new creation.

how do you explain this?

Revelation 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

or this

(Rotherham) 1 Peter 1:20 Foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but made manifest at a last stage of the times, for the sake of you

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

How can Jesus have literally come from heaven if he was foreknown before the world. Woudn't he have been known not foreknown at that time if he was around then?

How can the Lord have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and not know Jesus at that time if he existed? How can you foreknow someone who already exists?

The Gregorian · #29 4th November 2009, 04:50 PM

the most obvious question is: How are you defining "forknown?"

Obviously Jesus was "known before" he came to earth.. because... he was in heaven, hanging out, playing celestial World of Warcraft with God. (Jesus plays druids. That's why they're so OP)

2ducklow · #30 4th November 2009, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

the most obvious question is: How are you defining "forknown?"

Obviously Jesus was "known before" he came to earth.. because... he was in heaven, hanging out, playing celestial World of Warcraft with God. (Jesus plays druids. That's why they're so OP)

foreknow v.
.–verb (used with object), -knew, -known, -knowing. to know beforehand.

Foreknow Definition | Definition of Foreknow at Dictionary.com

That's what it means to me, which is the same meaning for how it is used elsewhere in the bible such as.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

god foreknew me which means he knew me before I existed, likewise, god foreknew Jesus, which means he foreknew Jesus just like he foreknew me.

(Rotherham) 1 Peter 1:20 Foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but made manifest at a last stage of the times, for the sake of you

IMO, 1 pet. 1.20 unequivacally deals a death blow to the preexistant christ doctrine, in any shape form or fashion.

Now to knock the ball back in your court, what does foreknow mean to you?

( your warcraft thing implys that you don't believe Jesus preexisted, which is counter to JW teaching, is it not?