Body or Spirit?

The Gregorian · #11 10th October 2009, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Simonline

The Son existing as the Divine Creator YHWH did not die (since He is Immortal) but the Son existing as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth did die (since he is mortal). The Messiah, existing as human, was resurrected by the one Tri-Personal God [Father, Son and Holy Spirit].

So, the only thing that died was nothing more than a human then? You don't believe God's son actually died for your sins, only that he took up a secondary nature, and that nature died, while he remained alive the whole time?

Tell me... I understand that you believe God is one being... and the Son is one of three "persons" of that being. But, do you believe that each of the three "persons" of one "being" can have multiple "souls and spirits?" If so, what's the difference? if one "person" can have two "souls" and two "spirits" ... why are not each of these souls and spirits individual persons as well?

Emmy · #12 10th October 2009, 11:56 AM

Dear The Gregorian. When Jesus paid the price we could not pay, He died on the Cross for us, and His Blood washed our sins away. God`s Holy Law demanded a sacrifice without sin or blemish. God raised Jesus from death, God accepted the Sacrifice, our sins were paid, and we were reconciled to God our Heavenly Father. When Jesus raised Lazarus, it was Jesus the Messiah, God-Son, who brought back Lazarus to life again, and proved that He was the Messiah, who could work mighty Miracles. Lazarus was restored to life and to his sisters. Jesus is now with God-Father, where He pleads our prayers. This might not answer exactly what you asked, Gregorian, but I kept it short and straightforward. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

The Gregorian · #13 10th October 2009, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Emmy

...He died on the Cross for us, and His Blood washed our sins away. God`s Holy Law demanded a sacrifice without sin or blemish. God raised Jesus from death...

You suggest that "he died" and was raised "from death" ... but many people here are teaching that he never died at all. That he only shed his temporary fleshly form, while his spiritual "nature" was unaffected. The point of this thread isn't to find the basic plotline... but to address the fact that people are greatly disagreeing with how they're defining a few key words.

There's quite a large difference between him coming "to give his soul a ransom for many"/forfeit his spirit vs. He took on a secondary nature, while still being his first nature, then sacrificed this human body, without ever sacrificing his own soul/spirit.

How do you read the verses in the first post?

Simonline · #14 13th October 2009, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

So, the only thing that died was nothing more than a human then? You don't believe God's son actually died for your sins, only that he took up a secondary nature, and that nature died, while he remained alive the whole time?

No. The Person died along with the Nature but the Person existing as human is finite whilst the same Person existing as Divine is Infinite. The Person Existing as Divine did NOT die for God by Nature is Immortal. That is NOT however true of the Son existing as a finite creature (which is why He did die as a finite creature).

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Tell me... I understand that you believe God is one being... and the Son is one of three "persons" of that being. But, do you believe that each of the three "persons" of one "being" can have multiple "souls and spirits?" If so, what's the difference? if one "person" can have two "souls" and two "spirits" ... why are not each of these souls and spirits individual persons as well?

I don't believe that God Exists in the same way that His finite creatures exist.

Humans were created to exist as tri-partite existing as body soul and spirit. As body humans interface with the physical world around them. As soul they interface with other sentient beings. As spirit they (assuming they are regenerate) interface with God.

God on the other hand is NOT tri-partite (Tri-Personal but NOT Tri-Partite). He Exists as pure Spirit (Jn.4:24) and therefore does not also exist as body and/or soul (since, incarnation apart, He is not part of His creation). Thus only as incarnate does the Son exist as Tri-Partite (body, soul and spirit).

From what you have written it seems that you conceive the Trinitarian God to be a triumvirate of three separate non-corporeal finite human creatures? That is not the correct understanding of the one God that is in accordance with the Divine Revelation that is Scripture.

Simonline.

Simonline · #15 13th October 2009, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Emmy

Dear The Gregorian. When Jesus paid the price we could not pay, He died on the Cross for us, and His Blood washed our sins away. God`s Holy Law demanded a sacrifice without sin or blemish. God raised Jesus from death, God accepted the Sacrifice, our sins were paid, and we were reconciled to God our Heavenly Father. When Jesus raised Lazarus, it was Jesus the Messiah, God-Son, who brought back Lazarus to life again, and proved that He was the Messiah, who could work mighty Miracles. Lazarus was restored to life and to his sisters. Jesus is now with God-Father, where He pleads our prayers. This might not answer exactly what you asked, Gregorian, but I kept it short and straightforward. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Well done Emmy! Unlike so many others who post all over this site (and other sites too) nothing you have said in this post is actually theologically incorrect, metaphysically contradictory or ontologically absurd. What a refreshing change!

Simonline.

Simonline · #16 13th October 2009, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

You suggest that "he died" and was raised "from death" ... but many people here are teaching that he never died at all. That he only shed his temporary fleshly form, while his spiritual "nature" was unaffected.

Actually, that's just your interpretation of what has been said by others which is not the same thing.

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

The point of this thread isn't to find the basic plotline... but to address the fact that people are greatly disagreeing with how they're defining a few key words.

Then it is essential that one starts by agreeing in advance the correct definition of terms before engaging in theological discussion or debate. As the late bishop J.C.Ryle was once quoted as saying: "Imprecise definition is the essence of religious controversy."

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

There's quite a large difference between him coming "to give his soul a ransom for many"/forfeit his spirit vs. He took on a secondary nature, while still being his first nature, then sacrificed this human body, without ever sacrificing his own soul/spirit.

But that is NOT what orthodox Christianity teaches (in spite of your trying to make out that it is)?!

If the Messiah is the human incarnation of the One Infinite, Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH, as the Scriptures reveal then it stands to reason that, Existing as Divine, the SON is going to Exist as Infinite, Eternal and Immutable (otherwise He CANNOT be said to be Divine (Matt.1:23)). However, existing as a human creature, the SON is most certainly NOT either Infinite, Eternal or Immutable (Jn.14:28).

That means that the Messiah [i.e. the SON] is a SINGLE PERSON simultaneously Existining in TWO (distinct but NOT separate) WAYS as TWO (mutually exclusive) NATURES only one of which is capable of bringing the Creation in to existence ex nihilo (from nothing) [Col.1:15-16] and only one of which was capable of experiencing death upon the cross [Acts.20:28(b)].

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

How do you read the verses in the first post?

Probably completely differently to the way that you do?

Simonline.

The Gregorian · #17 14th October 2009, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Simonline

No. The Person died along with the Nature but the Person existing as human is finite whilst the same Person existing as Divine is Infinite. The Person Existing as Divine did NOT die for God by Nature is Immortal. That is NOT however true of the Son existing as a finite creature (which is why He did die as a finite creature).

So you believe that only half of a person died? That he only half-died? Do you have any bible basis for this?

Humans were created to exist as tri-partite existing as body soul and spirit.

And we all agree that Jesus sacrificed his body. In Matthew it also specified that Jesus sacrificed his spirit (pneuma) and forfeited his soul (psuche). It doesn't say that "part of him sacrificed it's soul, while the other part did not sacrifice it's soul." ... Do you believe that one of the multiple persons of one being can have multiple spirits and multiple souls?

The Gregorian · #18 14th October 2009, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Simonline

Then it is essential that one starts by agreeing in advance the correct definition of terms before engaging in theological discussion or debate.

Sure is difficult to do that when the topic of the debate relates to the trinity... which is defined as an ineffable divine mystery (undefinable and incomprehensible).

Using terms like "Jesus died for our sins" ... then changing it to "well, only his body died, but his spirit lived on" (which, I assure you people have suggested quite a few times), until I point out that the bible clearly states that both his soul and spirit were sacrificed as well, at which point they change it to your argument... that one of his spirits and souls died, while his other spirit and soul lived on. Meanwhile, there doesn't seem to be any proof that one being can have multiple "person" ... and one "person" can have multiple "natures" simultaneously, each having it's own soul and spirit.

But that is NOT what orthodox Christianity teaches (in spite of your trying to make out that it is)?!

K... Do you teach that Jesus completely died for our sins? That his whole body/soul/spirit were all sacrificed and forfeited? If not, what part of him did not die, and what bible evidence do you have this part of him did not die?

Simonline · #19 14th October 2009, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

So you believe that only half of a person died? That he only half-died? Do you have any bible basis for this?

No. I believe that the Person of the Son, existing as human, died whilst He did NOT die Existing as Divine. To fractionalize His Person Existing as both Infinitely Divine and finitely human is impertinent. In this context it cannot (should not) be done.

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

And we all agree that Jesus sacrificed his body.

No, we don't because the human creature Jesus of Nazareth did NOT sacrifice His body at all. The Son, existing as a tri-partite human creature (body, soul and spirit (Heb.2:14-17)), sacrificed Himself.

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

In Matthew it also specified that Jesus sacrificed his spirit (pneuma) and forfeited his soul (psuche). It doesn't say that "part of him sacrificed it's soul, while the other part did not sacrifice it's soul."

That's because there is more to the Person of the Son than just His finite existence as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth. The Son existing as the finite human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, sacrificed Himself but the Son Existing as the Divine Creator, YHWH, as Immutable, is NOT capable of sacrificing Himself (which is precisely why He has had to incarnate as a human creature in the first place (1Jn.4:1-3)).

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Do you believe that one of the multiple persons of one being can have multiple spirits and multiple souls?

No (which is why I do not believe that the Son Existing as the Infinite Divine Creator exists as either soul or spirit in the way that He does as a human creature (Jn.4:24)). Existence as the Infinite Divine Creator (Jn.8:58) is totally different to existence as a finite human creature (Heb.2:14-17)...see my signature (below).

Simonline.

Simonline · #20 14th October 2009, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Sure is difficult to do that when the topic of the debate relates to the trinity... which is defined as an ineffable divine mystery (undefinable and incomprehensible).

Not true (otherwise there would be no Divine Revelation with propositional content (i.e. the Judeo-Christian Scriptures))?! Just because we are not capable of knowing Truth exhaustively does not mean that we are not capable of knowing truth at all (as evidenced by the Divine Revelation that is Scripture (Jn.8:32)).

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Using terms like "Jesus died for our sins" ... then changing it to "well, only his body died, but his spirit lived on" (which, I assure you people have suggested quite a few times), until I point out that the bible clearly states that both his soul and spirit were sacrificed as well, at which point they change it to your argument... that one of his spirits and souls died, while his other spirit and soul lived on.

All of which is ontological nonsense (and definitely not 'my argument')?! Existing as the finite human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son sacrificed Himself body, soul and spirit, not in part but the whole, His entire existence as the finite human creature, Jesus of Nazareth.

Such ontologically absurd statements as those you cite above are invariably made by people who clearly do not understand the Incarnation.

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Meanwhile, there doesn't seem to be any proof that one being can have multiple "person" ... and one "person" can have multiple "natures" simultaneously, each having it's own soul and spirit.

Firstly, the entire Scriptures reveal that whilst God is ONE (Deut.6:4; Isa.43:10-13) He simultaneously Exists as Tri-Personal [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] rather than Mono-Personal [the Father/Son/Holy Spirit alone (including 'Oneness')]. There is no statement anywhere in Scripture that either explicitly and unequivocally declares, implies or infers that either 'the Father alone is God', 'the Son alone is God' or 'the Holy Spirit alone is God'?! Instead the Scriptures explicitly declare that whilst God is ONE, the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God (i.e. the One Divine Creator God Exists Infinitely, Eternally and Immutably as Tri-Personal).

Secondly, Orthodox Judeo-Christianity does NOT teach that the Incarnation is about one Person simultaneously existing as two different human creatures with 'two sets' of body soul and spirit?! Instead orthodox Judeo-Christianity teaches (in accordance with the Divine Revelation that is Scripture) that the One Who has incarnated is the Infinite Divine Creator, YHWH and the way in which He has incarnated is as the human creature, Jesus of nazareth (as distinct from any other finite creature) and that the way that the Son Exists (first and foremost) as the Infinite Divine Creator YHWH is TOTALLY DIFFERENT to the way that He (the Son) exists (secondarily) as a finite human creature (1Jn.4:1-3).

Originally Posted by The Gregorian

Do you teach that Jesus completely died for our sins? That his whole body/soul/spirit were all sacrificed and forfeited? If not, what part of him did not die, and what bible evidence do you have this part of him did not die?

Yes, I both believe and affirm emphatically and unequivocally that the Son existing as the finite human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, sacrificed Himself entire (body soul and spirit) insofar as it was possible to sacrifice Himself as human (something that it is NOT possible for Him to do Existing as the Infinite Divine Creator (Mal.3:6)).

Simonline.