so then if we are not to depend on the HS for correct interpretation of scripture, what do you say to the verse that says: "the Spirit will guide you into all truth"? (John 16:13) wouldn't you agree that the Bible is truth?
Oh, goodness. It says 'guide you into all truth', not 'show you what the truth is'. A guide doesn't give the answers, he shows you how to get them. Read the rest of the verse.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
Oh, goodness. It says 'guide you into all truth', not 'show you what the truth is'. A guide doesn't give the answers, he shows you how to get them. Read the rest of the verse.
so then, a guide on a mountain trail simply points out the right one? a tour guide at a museum only shows you where the different items are? no of course not. they take you on the journey of discovery, showing you and telling you of new things that you didn't know before. in the same way, the Holy Spirit shows you things and reveals them to you as you read the Bible or hear from others who have done the same (such as your pastor's sermon at church). He doesn't just give you a Bible and say "hear figure it out," but rather as you continue to read, knew things He reveals to you. I have been reading the Bible since i first learned to read. i have read every part of it in at least a couple different versions. as i continue to grow in Christ, the HS continues to show me new things that i had never noticed before. I continue to learn new things out of the Bible despite the fact that i've already been through it several times.
so then, a guide on a mountain trail simply points out the right one? a tour guide at a museum only shows you where the different items are? no of course not. they take you on the journey of discovery, showing you and telling you of new things that you didn't know before. in the same way, the Holy Spirit shows you things and reveals them to you as you read the Bible or hear from others who have done the same (such as your pastor's sermon at church). He doesn't just give you a Bible and say "hear figure it out," but rather as you continue to read, knew things He reveals to you. I have been reading the Bible since i first learned to read. i have read every part of it in at least a couple different versions. as i continue to grow in Christ, the HS continues to show me new things that i had never noticed before. I continue to learn new things out of the Bible despite the fact that i've already been through it several times.
"You have just proven my point about interpreting with the Holy Spirit being subjective...
Good for you, you've read it. I'm not talking about reading it. I'm talking about studying it and interpreting it. Interpretation isn't simply reading commentaries or listening to a pastor. It's a process, a method. This method does not involve compiling a bunch of random information from a bunch of people, who can easily be mistaken, it involves studying the Bible: its content, context, and language.
The pastor at any given church isn't going to preach after studying the Bible objectively, he's going to have his own theological bent. Saying that this bent comes from the Holy Spirit is not only foolish, it's illogical. There are many different bents. Why should your pastor's bent be any different from Fred Phelps' bent? Just because more people accept it?
You have not presented a compelling case.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
"You have just proven my point about interpreting with the Holy Spirit being subjective...
Good for you, you've read it. I'm not talking about reading it. I'm talking about studying it and interpreting it. Interpretation isn't simply reading commentaries or listening to a pastor. It's a process, a method. This method does not involve compiling a bunch of random information from a bunch of people, who can easily be mistaken, it involves studying the Bible: its content, context, and language.
The pastor at any given church isn't going to preach after studying the Bible objectively, he's going to have his own theological bent. Saying that this bent comes from the Holy Spirit is not only foolish, it's illogical. There are many different bents. Why should your pastor's bent be any different from Fred Phelps' bent? Just because more people accept it?
You have not presented a compelling case.
haven't you ever heard a certain message and somehow it seemed as if it was meant for you? have you ever been listening to the radio and a song they play speaks directly into a difficult situation that you were in? have you ever been readying the Bible and a verse just somehow stood out from the rest in such a way that you knew it was the answer to a question in your life that needed answering? have you ever been studying the Bible and a certain passage suddenly makes sense when it hadn't for the last several times you've read it? this is not chance, this is not coincidence. this the Holy Spirit using that passage, that song, that particular truth or message, to speak wisdom and comfort to you. it is in fact very objective. it is so objective that only you can understand it as such. God does not speak one universal truth once and for all, in one universal way, for one universal understanding. rather, He speaks to each of us what we need to hear, when we need to hear, how we need to hear it, where we need to hear it, and in such a way so that we will understand it to be His voice. we each are different, and need to be loved in different ways. via the Holy Spirit, God can minister to each and every one of us in the best way possible for us. we are not just a great mass of people the God is trying to make His own. rather, we are each our own uniquely made individual. each individually loved by God. each one of us has our own special place in God's heart. God is perfectly able to use whatever He desires to speak and show His love to us. yes, He can guide my pastor's studying to make the right sermon for me to hear, while at the same time, He helps Fred Phelp's pastor write a sermon that contains what Fred needs to hear. pardon if i'm wrong, but it seems all too often that you minimalize God, in thinking that it is by our own understanding, our own efforts that make us who we are. this is simply not the case. I believe not in a God who wound up the toy mouse of this world and set it loose, but in the God who is the Master Craftsman who is still to this day investing all of His love and power into this beautiful work of art. making so many numerous and both great and small strokes of His brushor of His chizzle, so as to create a truly gorgeous work of art that is His perfect and undying love for us. don't take so many things for granted, don't assume so many things to be chance or coincidence.
haven't you ever heard a certain message and somehow it seemed as if it was meant for you? have you ever been listening to the radio and a song they play speaks directly into a difficult situation that you were in?
What does that have to do with Bible interpretation?
have you ever been readying the Bible and a verse just somehow stood out from the rest in such a way that you knew it was the answer to a question in your life that needed answering?
Not very reliable. What if I read the story of Jesus' crucifixion and 'Judas hung himself' stood out?
have you ever been studying the Bible and a certain passage suddenly makes sense when it hadn't for the last several times you've read it?
No, not really.
this is not chance, this is not coincidence. this the Holy Spirit using that passage, that song, that particular truth or message, to speak wisdom and comfort to you.
Great. None of that speaks to Bible interpretation. At all. That has to do with God's relationship to us, and that's separate from Bible interpretation. Do you know what Bible interpretation is?
it is in fact very objective. it is so objective that only you can understand it as such.
You are misusing that term. It cannot only be understood to be objective by one person, otherwise it's not objective.
God does not speak one universal truth once and for all, in one universal way, for one universal understanding. rather, He speaks to each of us what we need to hear, when we need to hear, how we need to hear it, where we need to hear it, and in such a way so that we will understand it to be His voice.
Theology is not relative. The Bible does not change simply because someone's struggling. You are talking about a relationship with God, not Bible interpretation.
we each are different, and need to be loved in different ways. via the Holy Spirit, God can minister to each and every one of us in the best way possible for us. we are not just a great mass of people the God is trying to make His own. rather, we are each our own uniquely made individual. each individually loved by God. each one of us has our own special place in God's heart. God is perfectly able to use whatever He desires to speak and show His love to us. yes, He can guide my pastor's studying to make the right sermon for me to hear, while at the same time, He helps Fred Phelp's pastor write a sermon that contains what Fred needs to hear. pardon if i'm wrong, but it seems all too often that you minimalize God, in thinking that it is by our own understanding, our own efforts that make us who we are. this is simply not the case. I believe not in a God who wound up the toy mouse of this world and set it loose, but in the God who is the Master Craftsman who is still to this day investing all of His love and power into this beautiful work of art. making so many numerous and both great and small strokes of His brushor of His chizzle, so as to create a truly gorgeous work of art that is His perfect and undying love for us. don't take so many things for granted, don't assume so many things to be chance or coincidence.
None of this addresses what I have asserted about Bible interpretation. You are talking about a relationship, not Bible interpretation.
__________________
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
What does that have to do with Bible interpretation?
Not very reliable. What if I read the story of Jesus' crucifixion and 'Judas hung himself' stood out?
No, not really.
Great. None of that speaks to Bible interpretation. At all. That has to do with God's relationship to us, and that's separate from Bible interpretation. Do you know what Bible interpretation is?
You are misusing that term. It cannot only be understood to be objective by one person, otherwise it's not objective.
Theology is not relative. The Bible does not change simply because someone's struggling. You are talking about a relationship with God, not Bible interpretation.
None of this addresses what I have asserted about Bible interpretation. You are talking about a relationship, not Bible interpretation.
alas, once again you have totally and completely missed the point i was trying to make. ok, i'm done here. I create a picture for you, and you break it down into puzzle pieces. you don't understand me, because you're too busy trying to figure out the individual pieces as opposed to the bigger picture. maybe i'm wrong on this, but it seems too much like you're trying to win the discussions you take part in. this website is not about winning, there are so many thing better than that in which CF can help. I can't try to explain things to you any better than what i'm already doing. if you can't understand what i'm saying, then i see no point in further posting on this subject.
alas, once again you have totally and completely missed the point i was trying to make. ok, i'm done here. I create a picture for you, and you break it down into puzzle pieces. you don't understand me, because you're too busy trying to figure out the individual pieces as opposed to the bigger picture. maybe i'm wrong on this, but it seems too much like you're trying to win the discussions you take part in. this website is not about winning, there are so many thing better than that in which CF can help. I can't try to explain things to you any better than what i'm already doing. if you can't understand what i'm saying, then i see no point in further posting on this subject.
God bless,
Stephen
I understand what you're saying just fine. I disagree with you. This is a discussion/debate forum. Expect your beliefs to get picked on a little.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
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