Christ is the end of the Law, no more OT?

vivalenca · #1 28th September 2009, 01:50 PM

Hello everyone,

I’d like to add a new discussion topic concerning the Old and the New Testament. In the OT we see the upholding of the Law as the code of ethics as the means for blessings and life (Deut 30:19) for the Jewish people. In the New Testament, however, the emphasis switches to grace instead of punishment, and faith instead of deeds (Eph 2:8). The tension between OT and NT then lies heavily upon the importance of keeping the Law (both oral and written), which in my understanding has lost its precedence to faith in Jesus Christ, who kept and fulfilled the law (Mat 5:17). However, before going further with my position, I’d like to ask what you think about the OT Law. Should it be disregarded or does it still have any value to add to Christians today? As you elaborate you response, keep in mind Paul’s conflicting statements such as “Christ is the end of the Law” (Rom 10:4) and “the law is holy, righteous and good” (Rom 7:12).
thanks,
vivalenca

notreligus · #2 6th October 2009, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by vivalenca

Hello everyone,

I’d like to add a new discussion topic concerning the Old and the New Testament. In the OT we see the upholding of the Law as the code of ethics as the means for blessings and life (Deut 30:19) for the Jewish people. In the New Testament, however, the emphasis switches to grace instead of punishment, and faith instead of deeds (Eph 2:8). The tension between OT and NT then lies heavily upon the importance of keeping the Law (both oral and written), which in my understanding has lost its precedence to faith in Jesus Christ, who kept and fulfilled the law (Mat 5:17). However, before going further with my position, I’d like to ask what you think about the OT Law. Should it be disregarded or does it still have any value to add to Christians today? As you elaborate you response, keep in mind Paul’s conflicting statements such as “Christ is the end of the Law” (Rom 10:4) and “the law is holy, righteous and good” (Rom 7:12).
thanks,
vivalenca

First we must differentiate between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law. The Ten Commandments reveal God's moral standards. The Mosaic Law was for the nation of Israel. Think of it as sort of a constitution for Israel. When I hear someone say that if you give up grace then you go back to the law, I know that person is making a confusing statement. Gentiles (simply meaning non-Jews) cannot go back under that which they were never under nor was ever meant for them.

Grace is another confusing subject. Jews lived under Grace. However, they had to follow the Mosaic Law, too. Under NT Grace, which is after the finished work of Christ on the cross, we do not follow a set of regulations (the 613 Mitzvoh) as they had to do. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:14).

How do the Ten Commandments apply today? The God of the Old Covenant is the God of the New Covenant. God's attributes are revealed throughout the Bible and if you've had classes in Christian Doctrine, then you know that the attributes of God can be found through your study of the Scriptures. Christ summarized the Ten Commandments this way:

Matt 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Matt 22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (NASB)

When you follow the leading of the Holy Spirit you will naturally follow God's commandments without having to refer to a list. The Holy Spirit indwells the temples of the new Body of Christ.

czali · #3 20th October 2009, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by notreligus

When you follow the leading of the Holy Spirit you will naturally follow God's commandments without having to refer to a list. The Holy Spirit indwells the temples of the new Body of Christ.

That's true but reading the bible helps a lot. And the OT if full of wisdom as to what happened to those who strayed from God's advice. things which will always be applicable.

Christ is the Fulfillment of the law. Not end. Fulfill has a very different meaning than end.

I am pretty sure, due to events in my life, that i was very much under the law prior to being saved. Now of course I don;t sin as much but sometimes.. gotta tell ya.. follow His advice and things will go much better... He gave us the written word for a reason. Perhaps if only to confirm what is written on our hearts.

notreligus · #4 21st October 2009, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by czali

That's true but reading the bible helps a lot. And the OT if full of wisdom as to what happened to those who strayed from God's advice. things which will always be applicable.

Christ is the Fulfillment of the law. Not end. Fulfill has a very different meaning than end.

I am pretty sure, due to events in my life, that i was very much under the law prior to being saved. Now of course I don;t sin as much but sometimes.. gotta tell ya.. follow His advice and things will go much better... He gave us the written word for a reason. Perhaps if only to confirm what is written on our hearts.

I believe that reading the Bible would help someone be led by the Holy Spirit. I did not encourage anyone to not read the Bible, did I?

Mishayah · #5 23rd October 2009, 08:02 PM

Hello all:

Just something to think about.

Yahshua says, 'I come to fulfill the law and the prophets.'

Anybody ever notice that this is in the present tense, not past tense.

I think part of the problem is that we have confused the 'Law of Moses' with the Law of YHVH. One is external and the other is 'internal.'
For example the Words of the Covenant which are the Ten Commandments were written on tables of stone, whereas the the Law of YHVH is written within the heart and mind. One does not negate the other, both are necessary.
As far as various applications of the Law of Moses, some of these should be no-brainers, such as the laws of quarantine, which very few even attempt to apply today. Also in the Law of Moses the actual definition of food is given. You know clean and unclean as far as meat eaters are concerned, which in Gen 9 YHVH says they who eat meat do so at a heavy cost.
Anyway there are some very applicable laws in the OT which would be very wise for us to practice.
I know, I know folks like to quote 'if you do any you must do all.' Well there was great controversy in the prophets about 'blood sacrifice.' Most of them condemned it. Bizarre isn't it? YHVH Himself says 'I never commanded 'blood sacrifice.'
So aside from that, The Law of Moses really isn't to difficult, as a matter of fact if we knew what it was we'd probably enjoy it.

notreligus · #6 29th October 2009, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Mishayah

Hello all:

Just something to think about.

Yahshua says, 'I come to fulfill the law and the prophets.'

Anybody ever notice that this is in the present tense, not past tense.

I think part of the problem is that we have confused the 'Law of Moses' with the Law of YHVH. One is external and the other is 'internal.'
For example the Words of the Covenant which are the Ten Commandments were written on tables of stone, whereas the the Law of YHVH is written within the heart and mind. One does not negate the other, both are necessary.
As far as various applications of the Law of Moses, some of these should be no-brainers, such as the laws of quarantine, which very few even attempt to apply today. Also in the Law of Moses the actual definition of food is given. You know clean and unclean as far as meat eaters are concerned, which in Gen 9 YHVH says they who eat meat do so at a heavy cost.
Anyway there are some very applicable laws in the OT which would be very wise for us to practice.
I know, I know folks like to quote 'if you do any you must do all.' Well there was great controversy in the prophets about 'blood sacrifice.' Most of them condemned it. Bizarre isn't it? YHVH Himself says 'I never commanded 'blood sacrifice.'
So aside from that, The Law of Moses really isn't to difficult, as a matter of fact if we knew what it was we'd probably enjoy it.

The Law of Moses was/is for Israel.

The Body of Christ is to be led by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:14). We will naturally follow the Commandments when we are led by the Spirit.

Departed Light · #7 30th October 2009, 11:54 AM

I believe that we should always look at sacred scripture through the lens of the cross of Christ.

Thou shalt not kill through that lens is still thou shalt not kill. For in killing our neighbor we are not following the law of love.

Thou shalt not eat shrimp through that lens is Christ declared all foods clean (cf Mark 7:19).

Since He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill them, we as Christians do not abolish the OT, but instead see them as fulfilled in Christ.

Just my 2 cents

Mishayah · #8 30th October 2009, 06:05 PM

Hi all:

I used to wonder somewhat why we all at one time or another got this insane idea that because The Son did this or that then we don't have to, so to speak. For example, He took up His Cross, so we don't have to, even though He said 'take up YOUR cross and follow me. And of course we all know where He went with His cross. So how can anyone look through the 'lens of the cross' unless they have carried that cross to it's ultimate destination.
So in light of that, could it be that because we have failed to understand these things, that we have not at anytime brought for the manifestations of the Son of God.
Sometimes I wonder, just who so obscured the Way that for all intents and purposes, it became lost. Just who told us that because the only begotten Son fulfilled these things that now we don't have to also, inspite of the fact the Messiah said 'come, follow me.' Why have we listened to so many others? I suppose perhaps for many, the Way was just a little too narrow.

Michael

Departed Light · #9 2nd November 2009, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mishayah

Hi all:

I used to wonder somewhat why we all at one time or another got this insane idea that because The Son did this or that then we don't have to, so to speak. For example, He took up His Cross, so we don't have to, even though He said 'take up YOUR cross and follow me. And of course we all know where He went with His cross. So how can anyone look through the 'lens of the cross' unless they have carried that cross to it's ultimate destination.
So in light of that, could it be that because we have failed to understand these things, that we have not at anytime brought for the manifestations of the Son of God.
Sometimes I wonder, just who so obscured the Way that for all intents and purposes, it became lost. Just who told us that because the only begotten Son fulfilled these things that now we don't have to also, inspite of the fact the Messiah said 'come, follow me.' Why have we listened to so many others? I suppose perhaps for many, the Way was just a little too narrow.

Michael

Seeing through the lens of the Cross means seeing all of Scripture through His salvific work on the Cross. Because Jesus conquered death by death we don’t for we can’t. We have life in Him and through Him because of what He did.

What does it mean to pick up our cross and follow Him? I have read all sorts of applications on that and I hear all sorts of Christians applying it themselves in various ways. We could open a thread and go for days on that with all sorts of great input from all sorts of folks I am sure.

I don’t think The Way has become lost at all. I hear of Christ crucified preached in all the Churches I visit.

Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly. It’s not that we don’t have to, it’s that we can’t, no matter how hard we try. Jesus intercedes for us at the right hand of the Father, not so we don’t have to but because He is our perfect High Priest.

I don’t know who you heard say that we as Christian don’t have to pick up our cross, I hear the exact opposite from the folks I talk to.

Mishayah · #10 2nd November 2009, 04:40 PM

Hi there:

You said:
I don’t know who you heard say that we as Christian don’t have to pick up our cross, I hear the exact opposite from the folks I talk to.

Sorry didn't mean to dump: You've fellowshipped with a far higher class than I. I heard these things frequently during my time in Tulsa Okla. To hear some of these folks preach you'd think Yahshua came to set up a 'Multilevel Marketing campaign.'

You also said:

What does it mean to pick up our cross and follow Him? I have read all sorts of applications on that and I hear all sorts of Christians applying it themselves in various ways.

Very good question! I don't mean to step on any toes, however I believe most have missed something quite extraordinary at what Yahshua said to James and John when they wanted sit at His left and right hand, 'Are you able to drink of My cup? Are you able to endure my baptism?'
In a typical baptism what is so difficult, in a typical communion service what is so difficult, that one would have to look deep within themselves in order to know that they have what it takes to endure such a terrific and difficult experience?
So Yahshua is referring to something altogether different than what we have previously understood.
I tell you what I believe, not through a line upon line type understanding but through personal testimony and experience.
To each of us there is given if we will except it a personal Gethsemane travail. To each of us there is given and prepared our own personal crucifixion experience. Even though I know this is an inward thing so to speak, still it is no less difficult. And it must be asked for.
I won't go into any lengthy detail but these things are the result of effectual fervent prayer. It nearly seems as if the one undergoing such things is literally transported back in time to the actual events. I know that might sound strange, but it is like you are with Yahshua on the inside experiencing what He experienced. And the experience is quite literally very, very difficult. And as for me I wouldn't trade it for anything.
But I'll tell you what, a person who chooses this will end up with a whole new perspective and whole new understanding of what's what.

Michael