Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
Folks, I'm a rip-roaring, Bible-believing, uncompromising fundamentalist, and I've realized something over the decades: The Bible does not clearly teach eternal torment.
The thing is that it's a rather blurry line. The original scripture refers to "Age and age" or "Age after age". How long is an age? Good question indeed. I do also know that hell itself will be destroyed - by being tossed into the lake of fire. From what I gather in revelations, the torment in the lake of fire will be eternal, and that's scary...
The thing is that it's a rather blurry line. The original scripture refers to "Age and age" or "Age after age". How long is an age? Good question indeed. I do also know that hell itself will be destroyed - by being tossed into the lake of fire. From what I gather in revelations, the torment in the lake of fire will be eternal, and that's scary...
Does eternal equate eternity? Does it have the same meaning?
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Does eternal equate eternity? Does it have the same meaning?
I think you have a good point. For example: since we know we are going to live eternally, with regard to eternal life, how do we gain something that we already have so, at least in this instance, the word Eternal must carry some additional meaning beyond just Eternity. Wouldn't you say?
Aionian (adjective), often translated "eternal" is often jargon for, a simplified shortened way of referencing, that which is of the spiritual realm of God that transcends time. Aionian Judgment is judgment that is of the spiritual realm of God that transcends time. Aionian Fire or Aionian Punishment is fire or punishment that is of, from, has it's sourse in God and is of the spiritual realm of God that transcends time.
For Plato (who some believed coined this word), aionios (noun) does not mean simply endlessness or indefinite continuance; rather, he uses it to signify that which is above and beyond time. In eternity there is no "was" or "will be" but only "IS".
Eternal punishment, eternal destruction then is spiritual punishment and destruction that comes from God.
Aionios was also used in the LXX to translate the Hebrew word/phrase olam or olam haba which was a means of referencing the afterlife, the world/age to come.
Aionian (adjective), often translated "eternal" is often jargon for, a simplified shortened way of referencing, that which is of the spiritual realm of God that transcends time. Aionian Judgment is judgment that is of the spiritual realm of God that transcends time. Aionian Fire or Aionian Punishment is fire or punishment that is of, from, has it's sourse in God and is of the spiritual realm of God that transcends time.
For Plato (who some believed coined this word), aionios (noun) does not mean simply endlessness or indefinite continuance; rather, he uses it to signify that which is above and beyond time. In eternity there is no "was" or "will be" but only "IS".
Eternal punishment, eternal destruction then is spiritual punishment and destruction that comes from God.
Aionios was also used in the LXX to translate the Hebrew word/phrase olam or olam haba which was a means of referencing the afterlife, the world/age to come.
I agree with this. Aionion to me does not always equate with 'age-during' that some are trying to push forward these days. Eternal.. is 'knowing' God... and that, as you said, is outside the realms of time.. and so is punishment. It's in knowing who God is... His character, His attributes, etc... that bring one to believe in His ultimate 'goodness' towards man..and of the great Hope He brings for mankind. His justice and mercy 'meet'.. for our good.. and His pleasure.
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I will posit that if aionios is to be understood as less than eternal then it applies to both punishment and life therefore invalidating the new convenant, Christ's atonement on the cross, and the promise of salvation through faith.
It depends on what it is that's aionios. An adjective is determined by the subject to which it refers. Punishment doesn't last forever because that for which it's being used is finite. The new covenant, Christ's atonement on the cross, and salvation are unending because the victory is in Jesus.
For example, we have tall buildings and tall people. Both the buildings and the people share the same adjective, "tall". However, we wouldn't conclude that tall people are just as tall as tall buildings. Same with aionian life and aionian punishment.
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All the Feasts of Israel are FULL of Christ! They all point to Him and we learn great things about Him and how it applies to us through studying the Feasts...
The WHOLE of the Old Testament is FULL of Christ. It ALL points to His coming.
My comment was to the effect, that I do not believe that the feast of the trumpets show any prophetic view toward what the apostle taught in 1 Cor. 15.
Passover... Christ's sacrifice as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Have you not noticed that only those who were the children of Israel and who obeyed by placing the blood of the sacrificial lamb on the doorpost were saved? And what about the fact that only the first born of the Egyptians [even the first born of their animals] died?
Unleavened Bread... Christ buried
I doubt it. According to your doctrine, what picture does the 'bitter herbs' which they ate with the unleavened bread show in His burial?
Firstfruits... he is raised as the firstfruit of the Kingdom.
1 Cor. 15;20 says that He became the firstfruits of them who slept, or of those who had fallen asleep in Christ. I can't think of any place in the scriptures where He is said to be the firstfruits of the kingdom.
Pentecost... the Spirit poured out and the church is established.
The Spirit indeed was poured out at the Pentecost. Peter preached that what happened there at this particular time was that which was spoken of by the Prophet Joel being fufilled. (Joel 2) And I will take his word for it. This was the beginning of the universal spread of His gospel. For there were present at this gathering, "Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." Thus they returned to their homeland afterwards, taking the good news of the kingdom with them. Many local churches were established as the result of this.
Trumpets... announcing the second coming of Christ
Every event of importance in the O. T. that happened with God's chosen nation (Israel) was heralded by the blowing of a trumpet. None of them that I know of announced the second coming of Christ, but many times the events that were preceded by the blowing of these trumpets were a type or a shadow of His first coming.
Atonement... Re-gathered Israel will "look upon Him Whom they have pierced"
Re-gathered Israel? Israel does not need to be re-gathered. The church which Jesus built was the re-gathered Israel plus the Gentiles who entered in.
Tabernacles... ingathering, picturing the next age.
The Tabernacle of the O. T. was simply a temporary tent built by the hand of man according to the instuctions which they were given. It foreshadowed the spiritual Tabernacle into which Jesus went as the great High Priest (Heb. 9) to intercede for anyone who would call upon the name of the Lord. Our fleshly bodies and our spiritual bodies are figuratively spoken of as being a tabernacle in 2 Cor. 5:1.
That's just a short inconclusive list.
Not studying the Law of Moses and the Tabernacle (everything in the Tabernacle is about Him and is prophetic) and Feasts you are depriving yourself of wonderful understanding of His Kingdom. It's ALL about Christ. Everything in the OT points to and is about Him.
Because one does not go along with, or believe your particular doctrine does not mean that they are depriving themselves of a wonderful understanding of His kingdom.
And yes, everything in the O.T. does point to Christ. And the scripture contained therein is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.(2 Timothy 3:16-17.) But we must be very careful that we do not bring forth a doctrine from them that is one of our own making. We should not try to paint pictures ourselves or study the shadows and pictures that others have painted, but ask for the spiritual vision that enables us to see those types and shadows that were put there by the Lord.
The proof is in the pudding with the "aonios" debate. No emotional pleas, no rhetoric, no fear tactics, just plain old logical deduction and definition.
Anyone who has done any kind of research on this subject has seen that the term "aion" has been translated in some translations with juxtaposed meanings. Sometimes with the root being "age" and sometimes with the root being "ever." Apart from the obvious rules of definitions of a term not being able to have opposite definitions of itself- with a quick study of the definitions and the scripture anyone can esily rule out which cannot apply. The consistent, literal, honest and functional definition that ALWAYS works is "aion" is "age"- hands down. There is NO ONE with any sort of degree in theology who can reasonably suggest otherwise.
Some quick evidences:
1. The term "aion" has a plural form "aionon" which occurs several times in the NT. Since there can be no such thing as "evers" this rendering is not possible. However- here "ages" or "eons" does work. The verse "aionon ton aionon" which is erroneously translated "for ever and ever" in rev. contains this plural form twice in succession. A student can determine that a phrase containing multiple "evers" and more multiple "evers" is impossible- and therefore they just put "forever and ever." but now you know that that verse contains two sets of "aionon" the plural form of "age". A literal and non-redundant rendering is "for the ages of the ages" which denotes a period of time within a larger period of time.
2. The phrase "pro cronon aionion" appears at least twice in th NT. "pro" = before, "cronon" = time (plural) and "aionion" = (plural adjective for aion (age)). If it were true that "aionon" could possibly mean eternal then it would render "before eternal times." which again, is impossible. It literally renders "before eonian times." Some translations have- "before the ages began" which is fine but they wouldn't dare translate it with eternal for the stupidity would be immediately shown.
3. Along with many references to "aion" throughout the NT and the references to "before aionion times" there are several times when the NT talks about the "age or ages to come. just another proof that there are no such thing as "evers to come."
4. There are several references to the "end." Many times we see the "beginning and the end" The origin and the consummation. The term "eternal" NEVER fits because eternal has no beginning or end...
5. The Consummation (end) of the ages. This is the most important part of the christian universalist's distinction between aionios life and leaving someone in the lake of fire forever. The simple premise: when there are no more "aionon"(ages) there can no longer exist anything that carried the adjective "aionios" with it. Neither aionios life nor death.
Conclusion: The many verses that call God the savior of all mankind, that through Jesus all shall be made alive, that all shall be reconciled to God, that Death will be abolished, that every knee shall bow..., are actually true because when the aionon come to an end so does aionios life and death..., and all is reconciled back to God that He will be All in All. (1st corinthians 15). Then there will be no more time, no more ages. no more aionios anything.
The great part about the Lake of fire is is symbolic and spiritual and iis not literal.
Originally Posted by agape101
The proof is in the pudding with the "aonios" debate. No emotional pleas, no rhetoric, no fear tactics, just plain old logical deduction and definition.
Anyone who has done any kind of research on this subject has seen that the term "aion" has been translated in some translations with juxtaposed meanings. Sometimes with the root being "age" and sometimes with the root being "ever." Apart from the obvious rules of definitions of a term not being able to have opposite definitions of itself- with a quick study of the definitions and the scripture anyone can esily rule out which cannot apply. The consistent, literal, honest and functional definition that ALWAYS works is "aion" is "age"- hands down. There is NO ONE with any sort of degree in theology who can reasonably suggest otherwise.
Some quick evidences:
1. The term "aion" has a plural form "aionon" which occurs several times in the NT. Since there can be no such thing as "evers" this rendering is not possible. However- here "ages" or "eons" does work. The verse "aionon ton aionon" which is erroneously translated "for ever and ever" in rev. contains this plural form twice in succession. A student can determine that a phrase containing multiple "evers" and more multiple "evers" is impossible- and therefore they just put "forever and ever." but now you know that that verse contains two sets of "aionon" the plural form of "age". A literal and non-redundant rendering is "for the ages of the ages" which denotes a period of time within a larger period of time.
2. The phrase "pro cronon aionion" appears at least twice in th NT. "pro" = before, "cronon" = time (plural) and "aionion" = (plural adjective for aion (age)). If it were true that "aionon" could possibly mean eternal then it would render "before eternal times." which again, is impossible. It literally renders "before eonian times." Some translations have- "before the ages began" which is fine but they wouldn't dare translate it with eternal for the stupidity would be immediately shown.
3. Along with many references to "aion" throughout the NT and the references to "before aionion times" there are several times when the NT talks about the "age or ages to come. just another proof that there are no such thing as "evers to come."
4. There are several references to the "end." Many times we see the "beginning and the end" The origin and the consummation. The term "eternal" NEVER fits because eternal has no beginning or end...
5. The Consummation (end) of the ages. This is the most important part of the christian universalist's distinction between aionios life and leaving someone in the lake of fire forever. The simple premise: when there are no more "aionon"(ages) there can no longer exist anything that carried the adjective "aionios" with it. Neither aionios life nor death.
Conclusion: The many verses that call God the savior of all mankind, that through Jesus all shall be made alive, that all shall be reconciled to God, that Death will be abolished, that every knee shall bow..., are actually true because when the aionon come to an end so does aionios life and death..., and all is reconciled back to God that He will be All in All. (1st corinthians 15). Then there will be no more time, no more ages. no more aionios anything.
I agree with this. Aionion to me does not always equate with 'age-during' that some are trying to push forward these days. Eternal.. is 'knowing' God... and that, as you said, is outside the realms of time.. and so is punishment. It's in knowing who God is... His character, His attributes, etc... that bring one to believe in His ultimate 'goodness' towards man..and of the great Hope He brings for mankind. His justice and mercy 'meet'.. for our good.. and His pleasure.
It's believed that Plato coined the word "aionian" as a means of referencing the spiritual realm that transcends the physical realm. It is used in the LXX to translated the Hebrew concept of "olam haba", as in the world or age to come. It is not meant to convey the concept of "duration" but the concept of "quality", "source", or "essence". "aionian punishment" is punishment that is of the world/age to come, punishment that has it's source in God the One that transcends time.
And of course, as with most words, aionian can have multiple meanings which is interpreted based on the literary and authorial context of any given passage.
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