Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
Exactly. So with respect to the social division, the righteous are saved, the wicked perish, and the whole world is renewed in a second creation.
What makes you think there is some sort of "social division". Do you think that God will allow the good in some people to perish and the wicked in others to survive due to thier social standing?
Good will endure. Evil will perish. Not one of us is good or evil but all of us are both. Paul wrote that all will be tried by fire. They will suffer loss and/or gain reward but the man himself [or woman] shall be saved as by fire.
__________________ "What does God need with a starship?" - James T. Kirk
I don't disagree with you, as I don't see the LOF as a literal lake of real fire or that it necessarily happens after physical death.
But if it is to be in keeping with the notion that ultimately all are going to be saved, then you would have to admit that it would of necessity have to happen to at least some after their physical death. Because obviously not all, as you said, "take up their cross and die daily" in this life. Which brings us back to the obvious: that what you termed as the 'flesh nature' is destroyed when the flesh dies. Which brings us back to my earlier comment that there is no scriptural support for the belief that the flesh and blood bodies of anyone will ever be resurrected. Which then would rule out the possibility that those who have died outside of Christ with only evil deeds to their credit would ever put on immortality.
Well no, the whole passage is speaking about suffering as a christian for the gospel, suffering as in participation in the sufferings of Christ:
1Pe 4:12 Dear friends, do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal that is taking place among you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 1Pe 4:13 Instead, because you are participating in the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that you may be glad and shout for joy when his glory is revealed. 1Pe 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the glorious Spirit of God is resting on you. 1Pe 4:15 Of course, none of you should suffer for being a murderer, thief, criminal, or troublemaker. 1Pe 4:16 But if you suffer for being a Christian, do not feel ashamed, but glorify God with that name. 1Pe 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God. And if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who refuse to obey the gospel of God? 1Pe 4:18 "If it is hard for the righteous person to be saved, what will happen to the ungodly and sinful person?" 1Pe 4:19 So then (or, therefore: this is what the passage is there for), those who suffer according to God's will should entrust their souls to a faithful Creator and continue to do what is good.
Since this epistle was written to those Jews who were of the 'house of Israel' who at one time or another B.C. had been dispersed among these Gentile provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia (1 Peter 1:1), it was in regard to their trials and persecutions by those Gentiles with whom they had formerly associated themselves (chapter 4); before they had heard the gospel, before God had begun to gather them out (spiritually so) of these heathen nations, it would pertain to them, and them only. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I count myself blessed that I live in this time when I am able to worship God and walk as a christian ought to walk, without fear of such persecution as those people at that time had to endure.
Jeremiah 23:1. "Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord. 2. Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord. 3. And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4. And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord. 5. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
John 10: 16. "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
knowing that the Temple was destroyed in AD70 and that God's name is no longer there, where do you think He has put His name now?
I don't understand your question. Are there some particular scriptures associated with your question that you could give me?
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Last edited by Evergreen48; 7th October 2009 at 08:31 PM.
What makes you think there is some sort of "social division". Do you think that God will allow the good in some people to perish and the wicked in others to survive due to thier social standing?
Maybe a better word to use is "societal." The question I am asking (not answering) is whether there is a societal division, in which some -- in our community, township, province, country, world -- belong to God and others belong to the devil.
Good will endure. Evil will perish. Not one of us is good or evil but all of us are both. Paul wrote that all will be tried by fire. They will suffer loss and/or gain reward but the man himself [or woman] shall be saved as by fire.
Paul is writing to Christians, so it makes sense that he doesn't talk as much about the society totally apart from God. However, I think that he makes some very strong statements that suggest that the whole person can be destroyed if the whole person is consumed by acts of violence and evil:
1 Corinthians 6:10-11
nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
That's just one example. My point is that yes, some verses talk about an inner division, but others assume an outer "societal" division that has taken place with the inbreaking of God's domain. I'm not using this as a proof against universalism, but rather to demonstrate the global bifurcation that I'm speaking of. Whether this split is ultimately overcome is a much larger question that I am not addressing here.
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...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
I have thought again Evergreen on your earlier post, and I think I may have been a bit brain dead at the time I responded, so I'll redo it. Your post in response to mine:
Originally Posted by Tavita
This is why it's so easy to see the ultimate salvation of all. Because when you see that Jesus is speaking to the inward man and the two natures, the one being hostile to God, then you can see that it's the flesh nature that will be destroyed by the Second Death and not the man himself. THAT is what must die (take up my cross and die daily), and it must begin now in this life for those who are of Christ..
Evergreen48's response= The 'flesh nature' is destroyed when the flesh dies. And that the flesh and blood bodies of anyone will ever be resurrected is not scriptural. For scripture teaches that the dead shall be raised incorruptible .
1Corinthians 15: 42. " So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
My thoughtless response: I don't disagree with you, as I don't see the LOF as a literal lake of real fire or that it necessarily happens after physical death.
So here's what I'd like to say now:
As to the flesh nature being destroyed when the flesh dies, Jesus said that unless you are in Him you will die 'in your sins'..
(Joh 8:24)I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
We only receive immortality when we are IN Christ, if you die apart from Christ you are not immortal. Unbelievers are not raised in glory and power. You receive eternal life when you receive Christ, not before, or apart from Him. So the passage you quoted is for the believer.
I believe the lake of fire is God Himself, HE is the consuming fire, and for the Christian the consuming begins now. The Lake of Fire is for cleansing, pruning, destroying, and correction. It is not for utterly wiping out mankind, nowhere does God say He will destroy the spirit of man.
As for flesh and blood being resurrected I don't think it's a clear case of 'the flesh and blood bodies of anyone will ever be resurrected is not scriptural.'
I found this online and thought it to be very thought provoking:
“One debate in the Christian community has been whether “resurrection” includes a person’s physical body or merely refers to a new spiritual state. Scriptures and therefore most traditions have conceived of resurrection as physical: believers actually appear again in physical form. The idea of spiritual resurrection is more popular today, but since spirits are already in heaven, what is there to be “resurrected”? “
We also have the account of Jesus bodily (flesh and bones) resurrection:
Luke 24:39-43"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me andsee, for a spirit does not have flesh andbones as you see that I have." And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them,"Have you anything here to eat?" They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.
What do you believe is resurrected?
Originally Posted by Evergreen48
Since this epistle was written to those Jews who were of the 'house of Israel' who at one time or another B.C. had been dispersed among these Gentile provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia (1 Peter 1:1), it was in regard to their trials and persecutions by those Gentiles with whom they had formerly associated themselves (chapter 4); before they had heard the gospel, before God had begun to gather them out (spiritually so) of these heathen nations, it would pertain to them, and them only. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I count myself blessed that I live in this time when I am able to worship God and walk as a christian ought to walk, without fear of such persecution as those people at that time had to endure.
Actually the Jews are not the House of Israel, they are the House of Judah, they are two separate houses. There were two dispersions, the House of Israel to Assyria and the House of Judah to Babylonia. The House of Judah returned to Jerusalem but the House of Israel has never been seen since AS the House of Israel of the OT. The Jews are still waiting for them to return not knowing that the House of Israel are in the Church and are usually mistaken for being Gentiles (they are indistinguishable from Gentiles now). There are also a great many Gentiles who have been incorporated into the New Covenant. At the time these epistles were written a very GREAT many Gentiles had been brought into the commonwealth of Israel:
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- Eph 2:12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
They are the 'other' sheep: John 10: 16. "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
And remember, in the New Covenant there is neither Jew nor Greek.. Jesus inaugurated a new and living way which transcends earthly ethnicity.
The Christians this epistle was written to are not the only Christians who have suffered persecution.. there are many Christians in many countries NOW who suffer persecution, and who would take great comfort from these scriptures. The scriptures are for all, not just those who lived in the time the epistles were written. We have a little country north of Australia called Timor and a few years ago the Muslims hacked as many Christians to death with machetes, and with other means, as they could find. We had to send troops into Timor to stop the bloodshed. The Muslim target was Christians (radical Muslims.. not the Indonesian govt). We may not suffer those types of persecutions in the West, but they still go on in many countries today.
ME - knowing that the Temple was destroyed in AD70 and that God's name is no longer there, where do you think He has put His name now?
Evergreen - I don't understand your question. Are there some particular scriptures associated with your question that you could give me?
I think you are answering the post I made before I later changed it. I took out that sentence and this is what I changed it to in response to your quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen48
But we are not of the 'house of God' which was spoken of in 1 Peter 4:17. That 'house of God' was none other than the literal house of Israel upon which God's judgement was about to descend. (that judgement occured in A.D. 70 - the destruction of Jerusalem)
God's judgment was to come upon the House of Judah in AD70, not the House of Israel. God took His name (presence) from the old Temple and put it in the new which is Christ when He was risen from the dead:
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Joh 2:20 The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
Joh 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
So that...
Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
As you can see the house of God is now you and me, the body of Christ... that is where God puts His name now.
1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
All this took place before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. The two covenants were side by side for awhile in a transition period... the old covenant was fading, and finally became obsolete at the fall of Jerusalem.
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Last edited by Tavita; 8th October 2009 at 10:25 AM.
I can't say that I am in agreement with all that Adam Clarke supported in his commentary on the whole of the scriptures, but that does not prevent me from taking advantage of his expertise in the Greek, and several other languages. And if I would assume to add anything at all to this good commentary, it would be, that there is no way that Luke, who is the purported author of the book of Acts, could have known but what some of those Gentiles who were present at this gathering would not have again heard the Gospel at a later date and believed. For after all, Luke was just an ordinary man, not a prophet, nor is there any evidence to support that he was possessed with the ability to see into the future, or to be able to know who were the "elect" and who were not.
Spurgeon's comment on Acts 13:48,
Said he, "Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste time in answering them. I read: 'As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,' and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man. Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe? If men are disposed to have eternal life, does not He-in every case-dispose them? Is it wrong for God to give grace? If it be right for Him to give it, is it wrong for Him to purpose to give it? Would you have Him give it by accident? If it is right for Him to purpose to give grace today, it was right for Him to purpose it before today-and, since He changes not-from eternity."
__________________ 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"
Things aren't always what they seem. It depends on the person who is viewing them.
Jeremiah 17:13 ".....the Lord, the fountain of living water."
Said he, "Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste time in answering them. I read: 'As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,' and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man. Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe? If men are disposed to have eternal life, does not He-in every case-dispose them? Is it wrong for God to give grace? If it be right for Him to give it, is it wrong for Him to purpose to give it? Would you have Him give it by accident? If it is right for Him to purpose to give grace today, it was right for Him to purpose it before today-and, since He changes not-from eternity."
So much for Spurgeon's comment, but he does not give any examples of other comments on Acts 13:48, or how they do'violence to the language'. ( I can't find any record of Spurgeon's being educated in any languages other than his native English language. Clarke was proficient in not only the Greek and the Hebrew languages, but several others as well.). I would be interested in hearing yourown comments on both Clarke's comment and mine. Thanks.
As to the flesh nature being destroyed when the flesh dies, Jesus said that unless you are in Him you will die 'in your sins'..
We only receive immortality when we are IN Christ, if you die apart from Christ you are not immortal.
I don't know that immortality is something that we recieve, as scripture says that we must put on (enduo - in the sense of sinking into a garment . . . . . .)immortality (1 Cor. 15:53). And scripture also says that immortality is sought by "continuance in well doing (Romans 2:7).
Unbelievers are not raised in glory and power. You receive eternal life when you receive Christ, not before, or apart from Him. So the passage you quoted is for the believer.
Then can you tell me how 'unbelievers' are resurrected? since it is only through, and by Jesus Christ that anyone is resurrected at all.
I believe the lake of fire is God Himself, HE is the consuming fire, and for the Christian the consuming begins now. The Lake of Fire is for cleansing, pruning, destroying, and correction. It is not for utterly wiping out mankind, nowhere does God say He will destroy the spirit of man.
As the following chapter 21 shows a new heaven and a new earth; the New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, I believe the 'lake of fire' in Rev. 20 is the fire that represents the final cleansing and purifying of His kingdom/ church/ His holy city - Jerusalem. And more than likely the literal Gehenna is brought into view here as the method of that final cleansing.
As for flesh and blood being resurrected I don't think it's a clear case of
'the flesh and blood bodies of anyone will ever be resurrecte is not scriptural'
I found this online and thought it to be very thought provoking:
"One debate in the Christian community has been whether "resurrection" includes a person’s physical body or merely refers to a new spiritual state. Scriptures and therefore most traditions have conceived of resurrection as physical: believers actually appear again in physical form. The idea of spiritual resurrection is more popular today, but since spirits are already in heaven, what is there to be "resurrected"?
Thought provoking, indeed. 2 Cor. 5: 1. "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, anhouse not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."
We also have the account of Jesus bodily (flesh and bones) resurrection:
That is because God did not allow His flesh to see corruption. (Psalms 16:8-11, Acts 2:25-28) He raised Him again after only 3 days in the tomb. Any longer than that in the tomb would have meant some deterioration to His body. Only Jesus was worthy of such consideration as this.
What do you believe is resurrected?
"It". It = the personal indentity of the individual. Psalms 139: 14. "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." I believe the the resurrection mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:50:51 has already taken place.
Actually the Jews are not the House of Israel, they are the House of Judah, they are two separate houses. There were two dispersions, the House of Israel to Assyria and the House of Judah to Babylonia. The House of Judah returned to Jerusalem but the House of Israel has never been seen since AS the House of Israel of the OT. The Jews are still waiting for them to return not knowing that the House of Israel are in the Church and are usually mistaken for being Gentiles (they are indistinguishable from Gentiles now). There are also a great many Gentiles who have been incorporated into the New Covenant. At the time these epistles were written a very GREAT many Gentiles had been brought into the commonwealth of Israel:
The 'house of Israel' was used loosely to represent anyone who was descended from Jacob/Israel. (See Rom. 9:6, 9:27, 9:31, 10:1, 10:19, 10:21, 11:2, 11:7 . . . etc.)
God had warned the Jews through Moses that dispersion among other nations would be their lot if they departed from the Mosaic Law (Deut. 4:27; 28:64-68). These prophesies were largely fulfilled in the two captivities mentioned (Assyria and Babylonia), but there were other captivities which also scattered the Israelites. 1 Peter addresses these people, and they are the 'other sheep' of John 10:16. Gentiles were never called 'sheep' or 'sheep of His pasture'. Psalms 74: 1. " O God, why hast thou cast us off for ever? why doth thine anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture? 2. Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt." Psalms 79:1. "O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps. 2. The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth. 3. Their blood have they shed like water round about Jerusalem; and there was none to bury them. 4. We are become a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and derision to them that are round about us. 5. How long, Lord? wilt thou be angry for ever? shall thy jealousy burn like fire? 6. Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name. 7. For they have devoured Jacob, and laid waste his dwelling place. 8. O remember not against us former iniquities: let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us: for we are brought very low. 9. Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake. 10. Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. 11. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die; 12. And render unto our neighbours sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord. 13. So we thy people and sheep of thy pasture will give thee thanks for ever: we will shew forth thy praise to all generations."
Jer. 23:1. " Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord. 2. Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord. 3. And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4. And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord."
Ezek. 34: 29. "And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30. Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. 31. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God."
The Christians this epistle was written to are not the only Christians who have suffered persecution.. there are many Christians in many countries NOW who suffer persecution, and who would take great comfort from these scriptures. The scriptures are for all, not just those who lived in the time the epistles were written. We have a little country north of Australia called Timor and a few years ago the Muslims hacked as many Christians to death with machetes, and with other means, as they could find. We had to send troops into Timor to stop the bloodshed. The Muslim target was Christians (radical Muslims.. not the Indonesian govt). We may not suffer those types of persecutions in the West, but they still go on in many countries today.
I don't believe christians are persecuted anywhere today because of their christian walk. Its all political - all about power. Example: Conflict in the Poso district: The Poso district is in central Sulawesi, about 1,000 miles northeast of Jakarta. Christians originally settled the district. Muslim immigrants have since arrived. Christians still retain a slight majority in that area. A dispute started between Muslims and Christians over the control of the local government in late 1998. It rapidly escalated into widespread clashes between the two religious groups. Hundreds died. According to Foreign Affairs magazine, in 2000-MAY, 70 Muslims who had surrendered at a school were murdered in cold blood by Christians wielding homemade guns and machetes. Christians later hunted down other Muslims, slashed their throats, and tossed their bodies into rivers. Others were strung up on homemade wire nooses. . . . .
God's judgment was to come upon the House of Judah in AD70, not the House of Israel.
As cited earlier: loosely speaking, the house of Judah and the house of Israel were one and the same in A.D. 70.
The following is a bulleted list of why I have come to believe that Jesus really is the Savior of all humanity – otherwise known a Apokatastasis, Universal Reconciliation, or Christian Universalism! Of course, most Christians today and ever since the ascendancy of the Roman Catholic Church do not believe in Universal Reconciliation. And yet the following to me is more than enough evidence to not only Hope for the salvation of all humanity, but even have faith that such is the case! Note that when I reference scriptures, I’ll put (to me); this simply signifies that I recognize that others have different interpretations of these passages.
I believe in Christian Universalism because:
• A few scriptures indicate such specifically (to me), Jn.12.32, 1 Tim.4.10, 2 Cor.5.19, etc., and especially Rom. 5.18. “Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.” • Many scriptures indicate such generally speaking (to me), Jn.1:9,29, 3.17, Phil.2.10,11, Tit.2.11, etc., like Jn.1.29 “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” • Scripture even speaks of God Restoring All Things, Acts. 3.21. • The Atonement is Universal, Not Limited in either Scope (Calvinism) or Effectiveness (Armenianism). Jesus’ sacrifice really does effect the salvation of all humanity, even those who died before the cross, even before the flood. • Not one word in the Hebrew or Greek texts of scripture is correctly interpreted as Hell. English versions are progressively correcting this error that was based on the Latin Vulgate’s mistranslation of the following words: o Sheol means grave, realm of the dead, and does not connote "endless torture" – thus NOT Hell. o Hades means grave, realm of the dead, and does not connote "endless torture" – thus NOT Hell. o Tartaroo was a place of torture within Hades, but is only spoken of in reference to the devil and his angels, and apparently ends at judgment - thus should NOT be interpreted as "Hell". o Gehenna, literally Jerusalem's City Trash Dump, to the 1st Century Jew spoke of purification that one undergoes before being admitted to Paradise (Garden of Eden) - thus, should NOT be interpreted as "Hell", and theologically could be interpreted as “Purgatory”.[1] • The "lake that burns with fire and brimstone" would have been understood by 1st Century Christians, Jew and Gentile, as equivalent to Gehenna, a place of purification - Not “endless torture”.[2] • The wages of sin is Death, NOT "endless torture". • Jesus said to fear Him who can “Destroy” both body and soul in Gehenna. “Destroy” speaks of Annihilation, NOT “endless torture.” • Scripture speaks of Repentance after physical death: Not only does Gehenna speak of such, but also the baptism for the dead, Jesus preaching to the dead, and even the phrase “weeping (brokenness and repentance) and gnashing of teeth (overwhelming remorse)”. • God is Sovereign accomplishing His Will. His will is that all come to repentance. • God is Just o Human Autonomy is Very Limited and thus responsibility for bad choices should also be Limited. o Temporal momentary sins are justly only punished temporally, for a specific length of time, not endlessly. To punish temporal sins endlessly would be unjust. o Thus punishment for sin should be Limited, not endless! • God is Merciful. Even I have enough mercy to put a rabid dog out of his misery – IF I can’t provide for his healing. How much more mercy does God have towards us. If He could not save us, surely He’d at least annihilate us, putting us out of our misery! But praise the Lord, He is the Great Physician, Healer of our souls, and Savior of the whole world! • God is Love. Love never fails! Love even keeps no record of wrongs. • Several church fathers were avowed Universalists. • In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were at least six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. • The earliest Creeds of the church do NOT speak of endless torture (Hell), and thus Hell was certainly not considered a tenet of the church. o “Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” A.D. 120-160, speaks of penalty of sin in this life specifically, and possibly in the life to come, but is Silent concerning any form of endless torture. o “The Apostles’ Creed” 250-350 A.D., does not contain a hint of endless punishment for anyone. o “Nicene Creed”, 381 A.D., does not contain a syllable referring to “endless punishment” even though such was taught by a portion of the church. Moreover, Gregory Nazianzen presided over the council in Constantinople in which the Nicene Creed was finally shaped, and he was an avowed Universalist! • The early creeds also contain NO hint of denouncing Universal Reconciliation though it was being taught by Clement, Origen, the Gregories, Basil the Great, and several other notable leaders of the Church. If UR was considered incorrect, surely one of the creeds would have affirmed "endless punishment" for someone or something; but as noted, such is not the case. • Though Origen lived 184-254 A.D., he and a form of Apokatastasis were not condemned until 553 by the Fifth Ecumenical Council. And it should be noted that the Fifth Ecumenical Council that denounced Origen has been contested as being an official and authorized Ecumenical Council, as it was established not by the Pope, but by the Emperor because of the Pope’s resistance to it. • Gregory of Nyssa, a known Universalist, was not only Not condemned but was declared “the father of fathers” by the Seventh Ecumenical Council. • St. Jerome, being part of the Roman school of theology, believed in “endless torture” and (whether purposefully or not I know not) Jerome misinterpreted Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartaroo, as “Infernum” in his Latin Vulgate 110 times which was later translated as “Hell” in the first Roman Catholic English translation. And of course, Roman Catholic doctrine was built largely upon that translation. Ergo, endless torture became the official doctrine of the RCC, though such is not in the original texts of scripture!
To me, the traditional doctrine of Hell does not line up with either scripture or the character of God.
[1] It was the fact that Gehenna would have been understood like Purgatory that freed me personally to hope for the salvation of all humanity.
[2] Brimstone and Fire were both used in and related to purification. Brimstone, theon, actually means "divine fire". Geologic, volcanic, and lightening were all spoken of as brimstone, fire made by God not man. All produce the smell of burning sulfur; thus sulfur came to be known as brimstone. Sulfur/brimstone was burnt in Gehenna, Jerusalem's city trash dump, to keep the fire burning. Sulfur/brimstone was burnt by the Gentiles as incense for spiritual purification. Sulfur/brimstone was burnt as incense medicinally for physical healing.
The following is a bulleted list of why I have come to believe that Jesus really is the Savior of all humanity – otherwise known a Apokatastasis, Universal Reconciliation, or Christian Universalism...
It seems to me that a lot of these sorts of lists are more in response to everlasting torment, in demonstration that it is not a viable system of belief, and thus insinuating that the only other possibility is universal reconciliation. As a proponent of the belief that annihilationism generally represents New Testament and late Old Testament thinking, then, I find that there is a third possibility to which many biblical scholars and theologians have turned in the past, I dunno, fifty years.
Why do you reject annihilationism in favor of universal reconciliation?
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
It seems to me that a lot of these sorts of lists are more in response to everlasting torment, in demonstration that it is not a viable system of belief, and thus insinuating that the only other possibility is universal reconciliation. As a proponent of the belief that annihilationism generally represents New Testament and late Old Testament thinking, then, I find that there is a third possibility to which many biblical scholars and theologians have turned in the past, I dunno, fifty years.
Why do you reject annihilationism in favor of universal reconciliation?
I think if you'll read through the list, you'll find it says little as far as a response or repugnance against everlasting torment. I've never been worried or bothered by the concept of "everlasting torment". I've always assumed such was true and figured that if such was true, then God had a good reason for it. For me, it was studying and meditating upon the various scriptures that speak of universal reconciliation that initially drew me towards UR.
In fact, I started studying scripture concerning "Hell" in an effort to not be sucked into what I thought at that time to be error - Universal Reconciliation, to reaffirm my traditional beliefs. However, as I studied scripture concerning "Hell", the more I found to support the belief that punishment in the afterlife (punishment in/of the eternal realm) is Remedial and not Punitive. It is meant to bring people to repentence and remorse. It is one facing the absolute pure truth about one's life - the good, the bad, and the ugly. This encounter with truth literally burns the hell/evil out of us. And deepending on how one actually lives one life, according to the opportunities that God gives, and how much one gives one's self over to evil in this world, determines how much weeping (repentance) and gnashing of teeth (remorse) one will need to experience in the eternal (afterlife) to be healed and embrace the forgiveness of the Lamb.
Frankly, I don't reject annihilationism; I believe that annihilation is the ultimate penalty for sin spoken of in scripture. Jesus said not to fear him who can only destroy the body, but Him who can destroy the soul in Gehenna. Destruction speaks of utter ruin - annihilation. However, when I look at all the scriptures that speak of the love of God for humanity and especially the scriptures that speak of the sacrifice of Christ for all humanity, the promise and hope of scripture is that the atonement truly does restore all of humanity to God. Love never fails. So the reason I've embraced universal reconciliation is because of the promise of such in scripture that I see. I not only trust Christ for my salvation, but for the salvation of all!
Concerning Hell, I've come to realize that scripture does not speak of such. Not a single word in the Hebrew or Greek text should be translated as Hell, not Sheol, not Gehenna, not Hades, and not even Tartaroo. Jesus actually warned of Gehenna, which to the 1st Century Jew would have spoken of Remedial Punishment in the Eternal, along the lines of Purgatory. They believed that most people went through Gehenna, a period of encountering the fire of truth that burnt the evil out of you so that one can live in the awesome presence of God. The rabbis taught that the very righteous could avoid Gehenna, and they debated over whether or not the most wicked of the wicked could be purified or if they might be annihilated, and some taught a possibility of endless torment. Concerning what Jesus said though, it lines up with the concept of Remedial Punishment and the "potential" of annihilation, but no indication of "endless torment".
Last edited by ShermanN; 16th October 2009 at 01:06 PM.
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