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2nd October 2009, 12:21 AM
|  | Non-Metaphysical Christian Critic
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Reps: 95,798,172,692,379,840 (power: 95,798,172,692,383) | | Originally Posted by Tavita  Very good. However we do have to be careful, as I'm finding out with many people who have studied aion and aionios for a long time, everyone seems to have a different interpretation or understanding, so it seems to be very hard for people like myself who are not scholars to work out who knows best and who doesn't. There are top widely known theologians who will give their opinion and they differ one from another.
That's why it's important to listen to Holy Spirit and take in the WHOLE of what one knows about scripture and what one knows about God in coming to an understanding of His intentions for mankind in the 'eternals'. Not that we can ever know the full truth of it for we look through a glass, darkly.
I agree. I've studied the biblical languages but it's still extremely tricky to do an effective word study. We would be fools to ignore the historical traditions which interpreted the Bible. In my opinion, that's where we hear the Holy Spirit the clearest. Personally, I don't rely on just those two words to believe in the 'ultimate' salvation of all.
I wouldn't expect you to, and I wouldn't either. I am more receptive to annihilationism than ET only because annihilationism is the point I started with after discarding ET. However I've gone beyond that as the more I look at WHO God is and His attributes the more I accept UR.
That's interesting to hear. For my part, I started with ET, considered UR (that was when I wrote the dissertation, as the fruition of my interest in UR) and during that time thought annihilationism was ridiculous -- due to my anthropology I was not about to throw out the immortality of the soul. However, sometime between then (2004) and now I've decided that annihilationism makes a whole lot more sense biblically. There are still issues that need solving, I guess, but none as serious as what I perceive in the theologies of ET or UR. Even though I may come to see aionios as being of quality rather than quantity especially regarding zoe, there are other concepts that need to be looked at too. For example, the meaning of 'destruction' and 'perish', what is the 'fire of God', what is the purpose of the LOF, what are God's intentions when it comes to 'punishment' (yes, I'm aware you think it's 'different' than what is revealed in the OT, but I'm sure we can find what it means in the NT), is it for OUR welfare or to satisfy some deep 'need' of His? Who exactly are God's enemies and how does He expect 'us' to deal/respond to them, etc, etc.
I've never seen any conclusive argumentation on those terms. You're right, they're important, but I think because I view most of them as metaphors, I don't expect them to solve the issue for me.
In my dissertation I focused on the theological motif of exclusion, exclusivity, bifurcation and election. They came up with respect to judgment/punishment, salvation, divine love, and eschatology. In every place the major picture was that humanity is split into two camps. Thus I ruled out UR as a candidate for my own theological framework. I will do a post of what I think ainios is later when I've gained more understanding of it, hopefully it won't be too long.
I look forward to it! I'm glad you have opened up the issue and are busy learning 
__________________ ...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession,
Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
- From The Four Quartets by T.S. Eliot
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2nd October 2009, 02:51 PM
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Reps: 1,368,659,446,273,218 (power: 1,368,659,446,277) | | | "for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure."- Philippians 2:13
He's wholly Sovereign and does as He pleases. Thus He doesn't make all sinners willing.
It is God Himself who fills the gap, or, makes the difference between the elect and the unregenerate. Of the Elect John said said, "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true" - 1 John 5:20
God does not give the faith to all, for faith is a gift. It is written in 2 Thessalonians 3:2, "and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and evil men; for all have not faith."
The Bible shows that only few are chosen. One verse that I believe has been overlooked by both camps is Acts 13:48, "And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
That verse alone, I believe, is evidence enough of showing only the elect of God shall see Heaven.
The fact of the matter is this, God, the ultimate standard, can not be accused of unjustice. I like the way Matthew 20:15 puts it, "Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own?"
__________________
2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"
Things aren't always what they seem. It depends on the person who is viewing them.
Jeremiah 17:13 ".....the Lord, the fountain of living water."
Last edited by PT Calvinist; 2nd October 2009 at 03:34 PM.
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2nd October 2009, 06:59 PM
| | Non-Metaphysical Christian Critic
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Reps: 95,798,172,692,379,840 (power: 95,798,172,692,383) | | Originally Posted by PT Calvinist "for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure."- Philippians 2:13
He's wholly Sovereign and does as He pleases. Thus He doesn't make all sinners willing.
Interpolation. It is God Himself who fills the gap, or, makes the difference between the elect and the unregenerate. Of the Elect John said said "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true" - 1 John 5:20
Many passages assume or teach that there is a human component to salvation, too. But God is definitely a major player  God does not give the faith to all, for faith is a gift. It is written in 2 Thessalonians 3:2, "and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and evil men; for all have not faith."
This might be interpreted locally, in other words, "not all have faith right now." The tense of the verb certainly allows for it. You are reading, "not all will ever have faith." Again, an interpolation. The Bible shows that only few are chosen. One verse that I believe has been overlooked by both camps is Acts 13:48, "And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Again, it is entirely legitimate to interpret this locally, in other words, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed right now." Although perhaps if we interpret it more strictly... Does it mean that every single person present who would ever be saved, was saved at that point? That would be an interesting reading, although I've never seen anyone argue it before. But it would score a point for you. The fact of the matter is this, God, the ultimate standard, can not be accused of unjustice. I like the way Matthew 20:15 puts it, "Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own?"
You are taking this verse entirely out of context, but you are probably aware of this. Just note that it is an illustrative point but hardly conclusive for "doubters." 
I used to be a Calvinist so I understand the mindset pretty well. I used to think it was the only consistent biblical theology -- and in a sense, I still think so. But it's TOO consistent. It can't handle the paradoxical. It moves logically, methodically, from supposition to supposition, and builds a beautiful structure which, unfortunately, ultimately fails to mirror the multifaceted theological portraits drawn by the many-voiced Bible.
__________________ ...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession,
Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
- From The Four Quartets by T.S. Eliot
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2nd October 2009, 07:04 PM
|  | beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
    
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Reps: 24,160,000,787,179,980 (power: 24,160,000,787,193) | | Originally Posted by PT Calvinist "for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure."- Philippians 2:13
He's wholly Sovereign and does as He pleases. Thus He doesn't make all sinners willing.
It is God Himself who fills the gap, or, makes the difference between the elect and the unregenerate. Of the Elect John said said, "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true" - 1 John 5:20
God does not give the faith to all, for faith is a gift. It is written in 2 Thessalonians 3:2, "and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and evil men; for all have not faith."
The Bible shows that only few are chosen. One verse that I believe has been overlooked by both camps is Acts 13:48, "And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
That verse alone, I believe, is evidence enough of showing only the elect of God shall see Heaven.
The fact of the matter is this, God, the ultimate standard, can not be accused of unjustice. I like the way Matthew 20:15 puts it, "Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own?"
Yes, now you're doing what people accuse Universalists of doing, and that is offering a few verses here and there to try and prove your point. I can also offer some verses to show that God will save all, eventually:
Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Rom 11:32,33 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all. Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
I Cor 15:22,28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order... "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."
__________________
Christina Wing ~ If love has limits, then it's not love. Love goes where there are no bounds, no space, no limits. There is no line drawn that love won't blow through it. That's His heart, to love all with no limits.
Dan Sheridan ~ God is a Savior, not a probation officer.
Mike Williams ~ Redemption and only redemption redeems the human spirit. The knowledge and only the knowledge of that redemption saves the human soul. |
2nd October 2009, 07:21 PM
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Reps: 1,368,659,446,273,218 (power: 1,368,659,446,277) | | Yes, now you're doing what people accuse Universalists of doing, and that is offering a few verses here and there to try and prove your point. I can also offer some verses to show that God will save all, eventually:
Right....Carrying on now? The problem is the Liberalism used in Universalism..
" Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory?"- Romans 9:21-23
You can interpret that for yourself...the ultimate destiny of every individual is decided by the will of God; if it were left to our wills, the ultimate destination of us all would be the Lake of Fire. It shows that God Himself does make a difference in the respective destinations to which He assigns His creatures, for one vessel is made "unto honour and another unto dishonour"; some are "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction," others are "vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory."
__________________
2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"
Things aren't always what they seem. It depends on the person who is viewing them.
Jeremiah 17:13 ".....the Lord, the fountain of living water." |
2nd October 2009, 07:26 PM
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Reps: 1,368,659,446,273,218 (power: 1,368,659,446,277) | | Again, it is entirely legitimate to interpret this locally, in other words, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed right now." Although perhaps if we interpret it more strictly... Does it mean that every single person present who would ever be saved, was saved at that point? That would be an interesting reading, although I've never seen anyone argue it before. But it would score a point for you.
No. There are four points to be pointed out in the verse of scripture..not historically or presteristically, but logically and more...First, that believing is the consequence and not the cause of God's decree. Second, that a limited number only are "ordained to eternal life," for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words "as many as" are a meaningless qualification. Third, that this "ordination" of God is not to worthless external privileges but to "eternal life," not to service but to salvation itself. Fourth, that all-"as many as," not one less-who are thus ordained by God to eternal life will most certainly believe.
__________________
2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"
Things aren't always what they seem. It depends on the person who is viewing them.
Jeremiah 17:13 ".....the Lord, the fountain of living water." |
3rd October 2009, 02:14 AM
| | Non-Metaphysical Christian Critic
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Reps: 95,798,172,692,379,840 (power: 95,798,172,692,383) | | "And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Originally Posted by PT Calvinist No. There are four points to be pointed out in the verse of scripture..not historically or presteristically, but logically and more...First, that believing is the consequence and not the cause of God's decree.
Interpolation. The translation merely correlates belief with decree. Even in the Greek, I don't think there is a causal preposition or participle. But I haven't checked. Second, that a limited number only are "ordained to eternal life," for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words "as many as" are a meaningless qualification.
No it isn't. Again, you assume that ordination is eternal and not local. If the ordination was that God decided they would believe on that particular time and place, it is hardly unreasonable to suppose that others present were decreed to believe on some other time, and at some other place. Third, that this "ordination" of God is not to worthless external privileges but to "eternal life," not to service but to salvation itself.
Yes. But judging by my previous observations, this point becomes moot. Fourth, that all-"as many as," not one less-who are thus ordained by God to eternal life will most certainly believe.
Again, you have not shown why this cannot be a localized ordination, i.e. that the aforementioned group was elected to believe on that day and at that time. This ambiguity in the text makes this a less than ideal choice to use to confirm your beliefs.
__________________ ...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession,
Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
- From The Four Quartets by T.S. Eliot
|
3rd October 2009, 03:30 AM
| | beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
| | Join Date: 20th September 2004 Location: Singleton NSW
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Reps: 24,160,000,787,179,980 (power: 24,160,000,787,193) | | Originally Posted by ittarter In every place the major picture was that humanity is split into two camps. Thus I ruled out UR as a candidate for my own theological framework. Originally Posted by PT Calvinist It shows that God Himself does make a difference in the respective destinations to which He assigns His creatures, for one vessel is made "unto honour and another unto dishonour"; some are "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction," others are "vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory."
I'm going to throw a spanner in the works here by saying that I believe the 'split in the two camps' and the 'vessel unto honour and unto dishonour' (same thing) reveal what is WITHIN.
Jesus taught more about the Kingdom of God within than any other subject, and He also said the words He spoke are SPIRIT and LIFE. They cannot be understood with the CARNAL mind.
There are two at work within us:
The nature of man - the flesh, the carnal mind, death, sin, etc. Outer darkness, hell, demons, satan, goats, the vessel of dishonour/wrath, etc... are within - us.
The nature of God - The Kingdom of God, Holy Spirit, life, the gifts of the Spirit, the mind of Christ, etc. Heaven, the heavens, sheep, the vessel of honour/mercy.. are within - us.
I do believe there are people in the world who show or manifest one side more clearly than the other (and mix it up some) and this is why it's so easy for us to think Jesus was ONLY speaking about mankind 'out there - outside ourselves' and I think we see this through the eyes of the flesh rather than the Spirit.
I know for a fact that within me is the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour, that there are two at work within me, and I believe this is what Jesus is speaking to - within me. In ALL His parables and teachings He is showing me the truth between my flesh and spirit.
__________________
Christina Wing ~ If love has limits, then it's not love. Love goes where there are no bounds, no space, no limits. There is no line drawn that love won't blow through it. That's His heart, to love all with no limits.
Dan Sheridan ~ God is a Savior, not a probation officer.
Mike Williams ~ Redemption and only redemption redeems the human spirit. The knowledge and only the knowledge of that redemption saves the human soul. |
3rd October 2009, 01:40 PM
| | Non-Metaphysical Christian Critic
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Reps: 95,798,172,692,379,840 (power: 95,798,172,692,383) | | Originally Posted by Tavita I'm going to throw a spanner in the works here by saying that I believe the 'split in the two camps' and the 'vessel unto honour and unto dishonour' (same thing) reveal what is WITHIN.
Jesus taught more about the Kingdom of God within than any other subject, and He also said the words He spoke are SPIRIT and LIFE. They cannot be understood with the CARNAL mind.
There are two at work within us:
The nature of man - the flesh, the carnal mind, death, sin, etc. Outer darkness, hell, demons, satan, goats, the vessel of dishonour/wrath, etc... are within - us.
The nature of God - The Kingdom of God, Holy Spirit, life, the gifts of the Spirit, the mind of Christ, etc. Heaven, the heavens, sheep, the vessel of honour/mercy.. are within - us.
I do believe there are people in the world who show or manifest one side more clearly than the other (and mix it up some) and this is why it's so easy for us to think Jesus was ONLY speaking about mankind 'out there - outside ourselves' and I think we see this through the eyes of the flesh rather than the Spirit.
I know for a fact that within me is the vessel of dishonour and the vessel of honour, that there are two at work within me, and I believe this is what Jesus is speaking to - within me. In ALL His parables and teachings He is showing me the truth between my flesh and spirit.
Hmm. This interprets many texts allegorically, which works if you have a long tradition behind you. Do you feel like you have a long tradition behind you?
Interesting solution. If you had told me this a month ago, I would have ignored it, but since then I've read some interesting material on allegorical interpretation.....
By "allegory," by the way, I mean to say that you are using an overarching theological framework to interpret and thus unify the entire canon. It's not something promulgated by modern scholarship but it's highly attested to outside of and before it.
__________________ ...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession,
Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
- From The Four Quartets by T.S. Eliot
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3rd October 2009, 02:48 PM
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Reps: 1,368,659,446,273,218 (power: 1,368,659,446,277) | | Originally Posted by ittarter "And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Interpolation. The translation merely correlates belief with decree. Even in the Greek, I don't think there is a causal preposition or participle. But I haven't checked.
Fair enough. No it isn't. Again, you assume that ordination is eternal and not local. If the ordination was that God decided they would believe on that particular time and place, it is hardly unreasonable to suppose that others present were decreed to believe on some other time, and at some other place.
The ordaining must be understood as the eternal, for you'll notice that Luke dosen't say they were ordained to faith but to life. Why? Because the Lord predestinates His to their inheritance of eternal life. They [Gentiles] were already promised with eternal life by the coming of the Christ, so when it came to pass, they embraced the Gospel or as Luke has put it, "Glorified the word of God".
" He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."- John 3:36
" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."- John 17:3
But besides that, note the restraint in the word "believed" in Acts.
__________________
2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"
Things aren't always what they seem. It depends on the person who is viewing them.
Jeremiah 17:13 ".....the Lord, the fountain of living water." | | |
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