Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
How about the word "aionion" which is from the root word, "aion".
Let's take a look at what the Greek Lexicons and Dictionaries have to say about these fine words...
Yes,I do know what the dictionary says because I thought that was the all end all of the discussion, once, myself. Then I found that it is better to see how the words are actually used in the Bible to get their meaning. For instance, the "everlasting covenant" between God and Israel was replaced by a new covenant, Hebrews tells us. Everlasting in the OT, olam, is the equivalent of the NT Aion.
There are numerous instances of everlasting things lasting only as long as they were supposed to last. That everlasting fire of Hell (Gehenna) is out. It's just a peice of real estate South of Jerusalem,now. The everlasting punishment, will evidently, last as long as it take the stubborn to see their wrong and repent. Paul said that God commands all men to repent. Good example of going to Hell, then repenting in Matthew 23. Jesus told those Pharisses, "how can you escapte the damnation(condemnation) of Hell?" Then, He tells them, "you won't see me again UNTIL you say...'blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord' "
I honestly believe this doctrine is so engrained in Christians that one must be brought to some grave circumstance that deals with loved ones or themselves, going to Hell, to even contemplate the fact that it may not be what they were told it was.
Not everyone agrees with Strong's definition. Strongs definitions are a good tool to use in helping us understand the text better but they are not without error, a careful examination will show that Strongs definitions are more a guide as to how he thinks the word is used in scripture [ e.g. Interpretation] rather than what the words actually meant to those who spoke the Greek language at the time the text was written.
Agreed. Strong's is incapable of helping us in this debate.
[/quote]In his Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent, D.D., Baldwin Professor of Sacred Literature at Union Theological Seminary, New York, explained: Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9, 15) said, “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence, it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Il v.685; Odv.160). It is not, however, limited to human life. It signifies any period in the course of the millennium, the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (DeQuincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.…The adjective aionious in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation.... [/quote]
Word studies of Gk. aion have no direct bearing on Gk. aionios.
Aionios means “enduring through” or “pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods....Out of the 150 instances in LXX, [Greek Old Testament] four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances, see Gen. xlviii. 4; Num. x. 8; xv. 15; Prov. xxii.28; Jonah ii.6; Hab. iii. 6; Isa lxi. 17.4
I couldn't help but notice that you did not provide an authority to back your opinions about Gk. aionios. LXX is a very different form of Greek and is not directly relevant.
(NASB) Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Overly literal translations like these are terrible guides. We must as well just stick to word studies.
Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of:
Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days.
To a slave, aionios referred to his life span.
To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood.
To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years.
To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether.
Can you provide references for these? I'm familiar with some of these but not all.
Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel or the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages.
No one is arguing about the meaning of Gk. aion. This is a constant red herring in your argument and of universalists generally.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, >>> that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal.
I think it would help if we started thinking "eternal" and Gk. aionios not solely in terms of duration. In Hebraic thinking there are two ages -- this age, and the age to come. In Christian thinking there are three ages -- the pre-Messianic age, the first Messianic age (inaugurated with the Advent, or perhaps the giving of the Spirit) and the second Messianic age (inaugurated with the Parousia). In Matthew's gospel, when Jesus speaks of "eternal life" and "eternal punishment" he is obviously referring to the second Messianic age. It is a kind of punishment that is decisively different than all punishments of the present age or any past age.
What we need to focus on, then, is any difference between "this age" punishment and "next age" punishment the text clearly brings into focus.
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
In spite of what the dictionary says, see how the Bible uses the word along with it's OT equivalent "olam". Sometimes we find that something is everlasting until it has finished it's purpose. The first covenant was an everlasting covenant but Hebrews tells us it was replaced with a better one.
Word studies of Gk. aion have no direct bearing on Gk. aionios.
Can you expand on that?
Have you studied this extensively yourself?
I couldn't help but notice that you did not provide an authority to back your opinions about Gk. aionios. LXX is a very different form of Greek and is not directly relevant.
I gave a link to most of what I provided.
Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days.
To a slave, aionios referred to his life span.
To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood.
To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years.
To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether.
Can you provide references for these? I'm familiar with some of these but not all.
How about you tell me which ones you are familiar with before I go to all the trouble of providing references for all of them..
No one is arguing about the meaning of Gk. aion. This is a constant red herring in your argument and of universalists generally.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, >>> that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
I am getting your meaning and at the moment I'm gaining a new perspective of what this eternal 'zoe' life of God is and how it relates to all His other attributes. When I've got my head around it I'll get back to ya.
I think it would help if we started thinking "eternal" and Gk. aionios not solely in terms of duration.
You mean in quality rather than quantity.. ?
It is a kind of punishment that is decisively different than all punishments of the present age or any past age.
Somewhat, maybe . An understanding of what this punishment is in reference to the rest of God's attributes are would be worthwhile taking a look at.
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I would think they way the word is used in the Bible shows it's true meaning, no matter what the writers of the dictionary say. They define a word like they see it.
OT olam and NT aion are used many times when they don't indicate endlessness. The first covenant that was an "everlasting covenant", we are told in Hebrews, was replaced by a better one. The Hell (Gehenna) fire is no longer burning. It's not a trash dump any more...just a valley (with grass) outside of Jerusalem.
The everlasting punishment of hell fire is evidently, temporary. Read Matthew 23 and see that Jesus condemned the Pharisees to Hell, then told them they would see Him no more UNTIL they say..blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord. The everlasting things seem to be everlasting until they accomplish the desired purpose.
I would think they way the word is used in the Bible shows it's true meaning, no matter what the writers of the dictionary say. They define a word like they see it.
OT olam and NT aion are used many times when they don't indicate endlessness. The first covenant that was an "everlasting covenant", we are told in Hebrews, was replaced by a better one. The Hell (Gehenna) fire is no longer burning. It's not a trash dump any more...just a valley (with grass) outside of Jerusalem.
The everlasting punishment of hell fire is evidently, temporary. Read Matthew 23 and see that Jesus condemned the Pharisees to Hell, then told them they would see Him no more UNTIL they say..blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord. The everlasting things seem to be everlasting until they accomplish the desired purpose.
Debbie
Dear Debbie,
There are many issues with attempting to interpret words outside of the intended biblical meaning. The word aionios is often translated as everlasting or eternal in the NT. It is imperative that context be considered. Also, God did not change His mind by having a covenant fulfilled and a new covenant given. This is called progressive revelation. I think that you would agree that believers will spend eternity with the Lord. Here are some instances of aionios intended to mean eternal or everlasting.
John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
John 4:14
but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Galatians 6:8
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
2 Peter 1:11
for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Now here are some verses that uses aionios for punishment.
Matthew 18:8
“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Mark 3:29
but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—
Then there is the following verse which uses aionios translated both as everlasting punishment and eternal life.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I will posit that if aionios is to be understood as less than eternal then it applies to both punishment and life therefore invalidating the new convenant, Christ's atonement on the cross, and the promise of salvation through faith.
__________________ If two friends ask you to judge a dispute, don't accept, because you will lose one friend; on the other hand, if two strangers come with the same request, accept because you will gain one friend. Augustine
Yes. I wrote an undergraduate level dissertation entitled, "Lord, Will Those Who Are Saved Be Few? A Theological Evaluation of Christian Universalism." While researching I had opportunity to track down every occurrence of Gk. aionios. Then I started looking up Gk. aion. I quickly realized that I wouldn't have to track all of them down, because they were used very differently. Ultimately I added an appendix to my paper regarding aionios.
I gave a link to most of what I provided.
You gave a link for aion, not aionios. Your discussion of aionios, as far as I could tell, represented your own thoughts. Unless you were plagiarizing
How about you tell me which ones you are familiar with before I go to all the trouble of providing references for all of them..
Using the letter to the Hebrews, I could easily find the reference for the Aaronic priesthood, but I don't know it by heart. However, now that I think about it, all of these are probably OT citations, which means that you first have to demonstrate that LXX Greek is relevant to the interpretation of NT Greek. Personally, I think we should just stick with the NT and see what we can figure out. With something as niggly as time, it seems linguistically irresponsible to guide our interpretation of NT Gk. aionios with occurrences of aionios centuries before or after. It would be like a future civilization trying to figure out what "truth" or "science" meant in the 21st century by studying manuscripts dated to the 19th century...
I am getting your meaning and at the moment I'm gaining a new perspective of what this eternal 'zoe' life of God is and how it relates to all His other attributes. When I've got my head around it I'll get back to ya.
I think it's a great example that shows, as you say, we should focus on "quality" rather than quantity, or in my terms, kind rather than duration.
It sounds like you are more receptive to annihilationism than ET. Why?
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
Yes. I wrote an undergraduate level dissertation entitled, "Lord, Will Those Who Are Saved Be Few? A Theological Evaluation of Christian Universalism." While researching I had opportunity to track down every occurrence of Gk. aionios. Then I started looking up Gk. aion. I quickly realized that I wouldn't have to track all of them down, because they were used very differently. Ultimately I added an appendix to my paper regarding aionios.
Very good. However we do have to be careful, as I'm finding out with many people who have studied aion and aionios for a long time, everyone seems to have a different interpretation or understanding, so it seems to be very hard for people like myself who are not scholars to work out who knows best and who doesn't. There are top widely known theologians who will give their opinion and they differ one from another.
That's why it's important to listen to Holy Spirit and take in the WHOLE of what one knows about scripture and what one knows about God in coming to an understanding of His intentions for mankind in the 'eternals'. Not that we can ever know the full truth of it for we look through a glass, darkly.
Personally, I don't rely on just those two words to believe in the 'ultimate' salvation of all.
You gave a link for aion, not aionios. Your discussion of aionios, as far as I could tell, represented your own thoughts. Unless you were plagiarizing
"Erm.. the link included both aion and aionios, you may not have read all of it. I don't like to plagiarize and that's why I gave the link to show it wasn't me who wrote it. Right now I'm revising my thoughts concerning what the passage says about aionios. Here's the passage about aionios that was quoted from that link:
Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of:
Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days.
To a slave, aionios referred to his life span.
To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood.
To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years.
To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether.
Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel or the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, >>> that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ. (I put this verse in!)
In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal."
To tell you the truth I think whoever wrote it is using aion and aionios as the same word with the same meaning and I'm not sure that's true anymore.
Using the letter to the Hebrews, I could easily find the reference for the Aaronic priesthood, but I don't know it by heart. However, now that I think about it, all of these are probably OT citations, which means that you first have to demonstrate that LXX Greek is relevant to the interpretation of NT Greek. Personally, I think we should just stick with the NT and see what we can figure out. With something as niggly as time, it seems linguistically irresponsible to guide our interpretation of NT Gk. aionios with occurrences of aionios centuries before or after. It would be like a future civilization trying to figure out what "truth" or "science" meant in the 21st century by studying manuscripts dated to the 19th century...
Yes, I agree.
It sounds like you are more receptive to annihilationism than ET. Why?
I am more receptive to annihilationism than ET only because annihilationism is the point I started with after discarding ET. However I've gone beyond that as the more I look at WHO God is and His attributes the more I accept UR.
Even though I may come to see aionios as being of quality rather than quantity especially regarding zoe, there are other concepts that need to be looked at too. For example, the meaning of 'destruction' and 'perish', what is the 'fire of God', what is the purpose of the LOF, what are God's intentions when it comes to 'punishment' (yes, I'm aware you think it's 'different' than what is revealed in the OT, but I'm sure we can find what it means in the NT), is it for OUR welfare or to satisfy some deep 'need' of His? Who exactly are God's enemies and how does He expect 'us' to deal/respond to them, etc, etc.
I will do a post of what I think ainios is later when I've gained more understanding of it, hopefully it won't be too long.
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Last edited by Tavita; 30th September 2009 at 10:11 PM.
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