Yeah, let's kick out all the people you think sin, on any level at all... that makes sense right? Because Jesus only welcomed non-sinners to God. (... sarcasm, obviously)
Fact is, the church would be kinda empty without sinners.
...Church is more for sinners than it is for the pure of heart
Actually, church is specifically for the body of Christ, not unrepentant sinners so I'm fine if unrepentant sinners want to leave because we don't accomodate their sin. They didn't belong there in the first place.
Maybe if people stopped obsessing over kicking people OUT of church, and rather worried more about how to make people feel accepted and supported IN church, maybe, just maybe, rates of Church attendance wouldn't be plummeting and rates of atheism wouldn't be climbing.
Working out who to exclude is NOT what Christianity is meant to be about.
I would strongly encourage you to study 1 Corinthians 5.
How does one know if someone is repentant? Do they make a public confession of repentance?
Hypothetical:
Three men struggle with the same unnamed sin; one, after each time they succumb to temptation, publicly states their grief over the transgression, the second does not, stating that any trouble he has is between him and G-d, and the third says nothing and refuses to discuss the situation. All three seem to have the same difficulty, approximately, with said unnamed sin. Which is truly repentant?
__________________
I am the microcosmic reflection of God Herself. I get to make up my own religion. I got my permission slip signed.
You laugh because I'm different, I laugh because...well, you're not laughing now, are you?
"Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, 'I am not the kind of person I want to be.' It must never sink into an assemblage of the self-satisfied." - Dune
How does one know if someone is repentant? Do they make a public confession of repentance?
Hypothetical:
Three men struggle with the same unnamed sin; one, after each time they succumb to temptation, publicly states their grief over the transgression, the second does not, stating that any trouble he has is between him and G-d, and the third says nothing and refuses to discuss the situation. All three seem to have the same difficulty, approximately, with said unnamed sin. Which is truly repentant?
All are unrepentant. None would be allowed to commune if their priest and/or bishop had an inkling. This is why we must go to confession before partaking of the Eucharist, and we must fast and pray. If someone were to withhold the sin from their spiritual father and commune anyway, then there would be serious consequences for that person as they would be sinning against the Body and Blood of Christ. Excommunication is when a person isn't allowed to partake of the Eucharist for their own protection. It is never intended to be permanent. A person excommunicates himself/herslef by their actions. A real example: Say I refuse to go to Divine Liturgy for three consecutive weeks for no valid reason (not sick or extenuating circumstances). I've already excommunicated myself and would have to go to confession before coming back and being allowed to commune again.
__________________
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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Last edited by seashale76; 29th September 2009 at 10:13 AM.
All are unrepentant. None would be allowed to commune if their priest and/or bishop had an inkling. This is why we must go to confession before partaking of the Eucharist, and we must fast and pray. If someone were to withhold the sin from their spiritual father and commune anyway, then there would be serious consequences for that person as they would be sinning against the Body and Blood of Christ. Excommunication is when a person isn't allowed to partake of the Eucharist for their own protection. It is never intended to be permanent. A person excommunicates himself/herslef by their actions. A real example: Say I refuse to go to Divine Liturgy for three consecutive weeks for no valid reason (not sick or extenating circumstances). I've already excommunicated myself and would have to go to confession before coming back and being allowed to commune again.
Oh, then let me add a condition - they go to a non-liturgical church with no rite of confession/reconciliation. Thus, Catholics, Orthodox, Old Catholics, and Anglicans need not apply.
__________________
I am the microcosmic reflection of God Herself. I get to make up my own religion. I got my permission slip signed.
You laugh because I'm different, I laugh because...well, you're not laughing now, are you?
"Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, 'I am not the kind of person I want to be.' It must never sink into an assemblage of the self-satisfied." - Dune
How does one know if someone is repentant? Do they make a public confession of repentance?
In some cases, yes, they do need to make a public confession.
We can know that someone is repentant by their actions and their attitude toward their sin.
Three men struggle with the same unnamed sin; one, after each time they succumb to temptation, publicly states their grief over the transgression, the second does not, stating that any trouble he has is between him and G-d, and the third says nothing and refuses to discuss the situation. All three seem to have the same difficulty, approximately, with said unnamed sin. Which is truly repentant?
The second man's attitude raises some big red flags. If he does not want to follow the Biblical command to be accountable to the body, then that says to me that he doesn't want anyone to see what's going on.
Likewise, the third man raises red flags. He may simply be embarrassed by his sin or may not know how to express his repentance or remorse, but the idea that he is dropping out of the Biblical model of accountability tells me that he doesn't want people to look closely at what's going on with him.
The first man seems to have a much better handle on true repentance. Of course, people can confess their sin outwardly and still hold onto it inwardly, but the fact that he is opening himself up to accountability and restoration is a very good sign.
No. Do you know anything of the OT "fathers of the faith"? King David...God's favored-one...presumably had sex with all kinds of concubines and slaves. He wasn't punished for that...he was blessed with that (spoils of war). He was punished for having sex with a married women (committing adultery). Her name was Bathsheba. He then proceeded to have her husband killed. Hello. How about Samson? He had sex with a prostitute...but no word of condemnation was spoken about that. There are more examples from Genesis...fahgetaboutit. So...I guess if the Church were to implement that unGodly rule...the Church would kick out the pre-adultery God-adored King David...and a majority of the "fathers of the faith"...
CC
Are you kidding me? David and Samson both suffered devastating consequences for their sins. David lost a son because of Bathsheba, was hated by son Absalom, and lost him, his daughter Tamar was raped by her half brother.....
__________________ Psalm 51:10
Create in me a pure heart, O God.
In some cases, yes, they do need to make a public confession.
Why?
We can know that someone is repentant by their actions and their attitude toward their sin.
How?
The second man's attitude raises some big red flags. If he does not want to follow the Biblical command to be accountable to the body, then that says to me that he doesn't want anyone to see what's going on.
Or, maybe, he's so embarrassed that he doesn't want his failure to be paraded around? Or, maybe, he takes a view of Matthew 6:1 that public repentance for the benefit of others is empty? Or, maybe, he feels that the entire issue is, honestly, between him and God?
Likewise, the third man raises red flags. He may simply be embarrassed by his sin or may not know how to express his repentance or remorse, but the idea that he is dropping out of the Biblical model of accountability tells me that he doesn't want people to look closely at what's going on with him.
See above.
The first man seems to have a much better handle on true repentance. Of course, people can confess their sin outwardly and still hold onto it inwardly, but the fact that he is opening himself up to accountability and restoration is a very good sign.
Or he may know that people look for those things, and that by doing them he's seen as repentant while not, in fact, regretting his actions. He does them for show, in other words.
In other words - how do you judge the heart of man, unless you're Thoth and you hold the Feather of Truth...err, are God?
__________________
I am the microcosmic reflection of God Herself. I get to make up my own religion. I got my permission slip signed.
You laugh because I'm different, I laugh because...well, you're not laughing now, are you?
"Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, 'I am not the kind of person I want to be.' It must never sink into an assemblage of the self-satisfied." - Dune
Because it's Biblical, because it shows that they're repentant and remorseful, and because it is the first step in restoration.
How?
By examining their actions and their attitude toward their sin.
Or, maybe, he's so embarrassed that he doesn't want his failure to be paraded around? Or, maybe, he takes a view of Matthew 6:1 that public repentance for the benefit of others is empty?
Matthew 6:1 doesn't say anything about repentance and has nothing to do with church discipline.
Or, maybe, he feels that the entire issue is, honestly, between him and God?
It doesn't matter if that's what he believes. The Bible says that it's between him and the church.
Or he may know that people look for those things, and that by doing them he's seen as repentant while not, in fact, regretting his actions. He does them for show, in other words.
And that's why we examine his attitude toward his sin.
In other words - how do you judge the heart of man, unless you're Thoth and you hold the Feather of Truth...err, are God?
How is it that you believe God is able to judge the hearts of men, but incapable of instructing His church on how to carry out church discipline?
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