However, the question that immediately presents to my mind, is someone more likely to repent while embraced by the church, or when ostracised from it?
The Bible indicates that when a person's heart is hardened by sin, there is often no turning back. The reason you ostracise someone in that case is so that you are not affected by that individuals sin. The same reason that Paul says to remove repeat offenders. So that others in the church do not become corrupted.
Thanks for the explanation of the name. My comment still stands-interesting. I could explain mine, but you know.....I think it's fairly obvious.
Originally Posted by ebia
Is he? The text doesn't say that. Looks like a cop-out to me.
I can't see anywhere that the New Testament talks about repentence towards anyone but God. Indeed, it would distort what the word seems to mean to Jesus for it to do so.
Can I ask what you take the word 'repent' to mean?
It's not what I say "repent" means. It's what the scriptures say. Repent means to turn from sin.
As for your other question, are you serious? Suggesting that the Bible does not say we should repent towards each other, only God? Read and find out for yourself what Jesus says about the matter:
Luke 17:3
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."
You see? If your brother "sins against you" and "repents". Then you are to forgive him as many times as it takes and therefore be restored to you.
No copout. The words of Jesus himself.
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It's not what I say "repent" means. It's what the scriptures say. Repent means to turn from sin.
To turn from sin and [re]turn back to God.
You can't repent (turn back) to anyone except God.
As for your other question, are you serious? Suggesting that the Bible does not say we should repent towards each other, only God?
To turn to the neighbour against whom you have sinned would be idolatory. When one says "I repent" one (should be) turning back to God. I sure as heck don't want anyone who has sinned against me turning to follow me instead!
Luke 17:3
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."
Sorry, for some reason I assumed you were looking at the Matthew where that clause doesn't appear - I don't know why. But the above still stands.
__________________ Goodness is stronger than evil,
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light is stronger than darkness,
life is stronger than death,
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Sorry, for some reason I assumed you were looking at the Matthew where that clause doesn't appear - I don't know why. But the above still stands.
I understand because that extra bit appears in Luke but not in Matthew. And sure, if you want to consider to "repent" something that you do in relation to God only, I can understand that.
Perhaps in relation to each other, we could say that we are "sorry" and ask for "forgiveness" for any wrongs we do.
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No. Do you know anything of the OT "fathers of the faith"? King David...God's favored-one...presumably had sex with all kinds of concubines and slaves. He wasn't punished for that...he was blessed with that (spoils of war). He was punished for having sex with a married women (committing adultery). Her name was Bathsheba. He then proceeded to have her husband killed. Hello. How about Samson? He had sex with a prostitute...but no word of condemnation was spoken about that. There are more examples from Genesis...fahgetaboutit. So...I guess if the Church were to implement that unGodly rule...the Church would kick out the pre-adultery God-adored King David...and a majority of the "fathers of the faith"...
CC
__________________ It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. -Gal 5:1 (NIV)
Heh?? Ridiculous?? Who, me or you?? The OP asked a question about kicking people out of church for sin. I answered that question and as such, there is one qualification for grounds to do so.
"Unrepentant" sin.
How is that "ridiculous" to answer the OP's question? The only thing that is "ridiculous" is the suggestion that I am limited in answering the question of the OP.
From your post #6:
No offense guys, but all these replies are just ridiculous.
This is what I was referring to as being an unnecessary remark.
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Why I call myself a „non-believer“ or „atheist“:
I can´t relate to any of the god concepts I´m familiar with so far.
Either I´m not convinced by the concept, or
– although not having a problem with the worldview itself -
I see no reason to call one of its elements „God“:
There are already more precise, more common, less loaded and less likely to be misunderstood terms for these elements.
E.g. I prefer to call nature „nature“, the universe „universe“ and everything „everything“.
No. Do you know anything of the OT "fathers of the faith"? King David...God's favored-one...presumably had sex with all kinds of concubines and slaves. He wasn't punished for that...he was blessed with that (spoils of war). He was punished for having sex with a married women (committing adultery). Her name was Bathsheba. He then proceeded to have her husband killed. Hello. How about Samson? He had sex with a prostitute...but no word of condemnation was spoken about that. There are more examples from Genesis...fahgetaboutit. So...I guess if the Church were to implement that unGodly rule...the Church would kick out the pre-adultery God-adored King David...and a majority of the "fathers of the faith"...
CC
I agree with this, I think we are getting off topic here. I agree that unrepentant sin is what disfellowships you but the deeper question here and the one that the OP asked, is sex outside of marriage a sin and the OT has penty of examples, its difficult to reconsile the actions of king david with some of the NT scripture, maybe having concubines and slaves and multipule wives is not a good idea but it gets dicy when you call it "sin" and the church seems to be pretty staunch about something so unclear. It fine if a brother comes to you and calls you out but if you dont think its sin and he does and you can biblically prove your point then what, im would obviously not be having sex in front of him so how can it be like eating meat in front of him if he believes meat to be a sin?
Excommunication has rules- outside of Apostolic churches (such as Orthodox) that takes the Eucharist extremely seriously- it doesn't mean much. Being in communion isn't a vague idea- it's a way of life- and a very tangible thing for us. The body and blood of Christ is the unifier here.
If someone sins in this manner they must repent, because if they choose to commune without following the rules set forth (fasting, prayer, repentance, confession) then that person is condemning himself/herself by unworthily communing and sinning against the body and blood of Christ. There are consequences for serious sins- likely they wouldn't be allowed to commune for a time. If this person keeps sinning and has no intention of stopping- then they wouldn't be allowed to come back to the chalice by their own choice. Excommunication isn't intended to be permanent- it is completely dependent on the person, the severity of the sin, their willingness to repent, and for their protection.
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Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
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No. I can understand the thinking behind demoting a priest who does it, but not an ordinary person.
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Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.
Psalm 1:1-2
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Before Alamein we never had a victory. After Alamein we never had a defeat.
Winston Churchill on British victory over Nazi Germany at the Battle of El Alamein, 1942
Yes, we should, if it's deliberate and nonrepentant.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
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