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27th September 2009, 04:33 AM
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Reps: 11,118,139,750,388,280 (power: 11,118,139,750,396) | | Originally Posted by quatona  However, you didnīt have to call answers to the OP as it read "ridiculous".
Heh?? Ridiculous?? Who, me or you?? The OP asked a question about kicking people out of church for sin. I answered that question and as such, there is one qualification for grounds to do so.
"Unrepentant" sin.
How is that "ridiculous" to answer the OP's question? The only thing that is "ridiculous" is the suggestion that I am limited in answering the question of the OP.
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27th September 2009, 04:35 AM
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Reps: 10,219,569,387,278,330 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by BlackSabb Heh?? Ridiculous?? Who, me or you?? The OP asked a question about kicking people out of church for sin. I answered that question and as such, there is one qualification for grounds to do so.
"Unrepentant" sin.
How is that "ridiculous" to answer the OP's question? The only thing that is "ridiculous" is the suggestion that I am limited in answering the question of the OP.
Just remind me... where did Jesus say anything about kicking people out of the church? |
27th September 2009, 04:45 AM
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Reps: 481,213,167,237,329,856 (power: 481,213,167,237,361) | | Originally Posted by Steezie It's not very Christ-like behavior and I dont see the biblical justification for kicking them out of church.
If you kick people out because they break the rules then you're going to have a REAL empty church
Absolutely. And, if you did have anybody left they would be precisely the people who didn't need the church. As someone said, its the sick that need a doctor, not the healthy.
Of course, there's not much point going to hospital if you don't want to be well.
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27th September 2009, 05:08 AM
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Reps: 11,118,139,750,388,280 (power: 11,118,139,750,396) | | Originally Posted by EnemyPartyII Just remind me... where did Jesus say anything about kicking people out of the church?
He didn't say about "kicking people out of the church". Paul said that, as I said earlier. Jesus did however reinforce the principle of exclusion of certain people when he talked about a brother that continues sinning.
Do you remember that in the Gospels?
If your brother sins, go and tell him so and if he repents, you have won him back. If he refuses to listen to you, take an elder with you and tell him his wrong. And if refuses to listen after a third time to the church as a whole, then the sinning brother is to be treated as a tax collector-completely shunned.
Paul only reinforces what Jesus instructs regarding habitual unrepentant sinners-exclusion from the church community.
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27th September 2009, 05:41 AM
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Reps: 10,219,569,387,278,330 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by BlackSabb He didn't say about "kicking people out of the church". Paul said that, as I said earlier. Jesus did however reinforce the principle of exclusion of certain people when he talked about a brother that continues sinning.
Do you remember that in the Gospels?
If your brother sins, go and tell him so and if he repents, you have won him back. If he refuses to listen to you, take an elder with you and tell him his wrong. And if refuses to listen after a third time to the church as a whole, then the sinning brother is to be treated as a tax collector-completely shunned.
Paul only reinforces what Jesus instructs regarding habitual unrepentant sinners-exclusion from the church community.
Not off the top of my head. Chapter and verse? |
27th September 2009, 05:48 AM
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Reps: 11,118,139,750,388,280 (power: 11,118,139,750,396) | | Originally Posted by EnemyPartyII Not off the top of my head. Chapter and verse?
Matthew 18:15-17 (Jesus speaking): 15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. In the time of Jesus, the Jews did not in any way associate with non Jews and tax collectors.
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Last edited by BlackSabb; 27th September 2009 at 05:54 AM.
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27th September 2009, 06:03 AM
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Of course, Jesus also told the story of the good Samaritan, and told us to turn the other cheek 70 times 7 times. |
27th September 2009, 06:19 AM
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Reps: 11,118,139,750,388,280 (power: 11,118,139,750,396) | | Originally Posted by EnemyPartyII Hmm. Interesting.
Of course, Jesus also told the story of the good Samaritan, and told us to turn the other cheek 70 times 7 times.
One verse does not cancel out the other. The verse you are referring to is talking about forgiveness (70 times 7). Jesus was talking about how many times should you forgive people?
However EnemyPartyII (interesting name), you have missed one vital portion of information. Jesus was saying how many times should you forgive your brother: "If he repents towards you".
That is the key. Jesus is saying that so long as someone is genuinely sorry towards the wrong they have done to you, you are to forgive them unconditionally, as many times as it takes.
But the key is that the brother has to be genuinely sorry and repent. And if he does wrong again towards you and again has genuine remorse, you are obliged to forgive him.
That is not the same as the instructions Jesus gave about the sinning brother. The difference is that the sinning brother, that Jesus says in the end you are to completely shun, has no remorse or repentance in his heart. The sinning brother just keeps on blatantly sinning in full knowledge of the violation of God's laws with no effort of turning from his ways.
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Last edited by BlackSabb; 27th September 2009 at 06:25 AM.
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27th September 2009, 06:23 AM
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Reps: 10,219,569,387,278,330 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by BlackSabb One verse does not cancel out the other. The verse you are referring to is talking about forgiveness. Jesus was talking about how many times should you forgive people?
However EnemyPartyII (interesting name), you have missed one vital portion of information. Jesus was saying how many times should you forgive your brother:
"If he repents towards you".
That is the key. Jesus is saying that so long as someone is genuinely sorry towards the wrong they have done to you, you are to forgive them unconditionally, as many times as it takes.
But the key is that the brother has to be genuinely sorry and repent. And if he does wrong again towards you and again has genuine remorse, you are obliged to forgive him.
That is not the same as the instructions Jesus gave about the sinning brother. The difference is that the sinning brother, that Jesus says in the end you are to completely shun, has no remorse or repentance.
Interesting argument.
However, the question that immediately presents to my mind, is someone more likely to repent while embraced by the church, or when ostracised from it?
(Enemy Party because when I registered, I had just come back from being part of an enemy party on exercise, and II because I messed up my initial registration, so I re-registered 2 minutes later with the same name)  |
27th September 2009, 06:40 AM
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Reps: 481,213,167,237,329,856 (power: 481,213,167,237,361) | | Originally Posted by BlackSabb However EnemyPartyII (interesting name), you have missed one vital portion of information. Jesus was saying how many times should you forgive your brother:
"If he repents towards you".
Is he? The text doesn't say that. Looks like a cop-out to me.
I can't see anywhere that the New Testament talks about repentence towards anyone but God. Indeed, it would distort what the word seems to mean to Jesus for it to do so.
Can I ask what you take the word 'repent' to mean?
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"Goodness is stronger than evil,
love is stronger than hate,
light is stronger than darkness,
life is stronger than death,
victory is ours through him who loved us."
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