Ultimately, nobody wants to identify completely with any label.
Conservative Christians are one thing; the discussion of politics is another, it's an open item on which conservative Christians may disagree.
__________________ "... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
To us, O LORD, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you.
Last edited by heymikey80; 8th November 2009 at 09:27 PM.
A Christian conservative and a conservative Christian are not the same thing at all. Which is the noun and which is the adjective matters enormously.
I am a conservative Christian, i.e., one who adheres to the Gospel as handed down from the days of the Apostles.
But I'm not a Christian conservative, which carries connotations of Jerry Falwell, the Moral Majority, and political social conservatism. I'm not part of that subculture, don't like it or agree with it, and that's not my politics.
I'm a Christian and a libertarian, though not a "Christian libertarian" or a "libertarian Christian", both of which have specific meanings that I don't identify with.
As a Christian, Conservative/Fundamentalist in belief, I cannot separate my Faith from how I look at and interact with God's creative work. So if I rightly believe that the Scriptures teach against abortion, teach against homosexuality, etc., which I believe they do, then I cannot in good faith support any political party or candidate who has views contrary to God's Word. Also, I cannot support any party or candidate who does not fully support the people and nation of Israel.
It's not about Republican or Democrat, it's about living your Faith. Anything less would be lukewarm faith, and we all know how God feels about that!
Faith.Man: Regarding Israel, I hope you know the stories of how the Israeli government is oppressing Palestinians. I think I'll start a thread for that tomorrow. I support the state's existence, but we know from Scripture that Israel can certainly do wrong.
Also, I haven't yet met a Christian who I believed held political opinions for anti-Scriptural reasons (but I wouldn't consider an outright lie as an opinion), and I've read arguments from very liberal Christians. We should never call a view unscriptural until we understand the logic - and even then it's a weighty charge which must be used sparingly.
__________________ Do you convince people or just alienate them?
Think of the most wacky religion you know of. How would you lovingly witness to an adherent of it? Now how does that compare to your treatment of other types of differing opinions?
Faith.Man: Regarding Israel, I hope you know the stories of how the Israeli government is oppressing Palestinians. I think I'll start a thread for that tomorrow. I support the state's existence, but we know from Scripture that Israel can certainly do wrong.
Also, I haven't yet met a Christian who I believed held political opinions for anti-Scriptural reasons (but I wouldn't consider an outright lie as an opinion), and I've read arguments from very liberal Christians. We should never call a view unscriptural until we understand the logic - and even then it's a weighty charge which must be used sparingly.
Take a look at a map of the Middle East sometime and compare how small and insignificant Israel is in comparison to the rest of the Middle East. Why doesn't one or more of these rich Middle East countries make room for the Palestinians? Answer: religious hatred on the part of the Muslims. It's not about humanitarianism for the Palestinian people, it's about wiping out any religion not Muslim. I support whatever policies Israel deems necessary to assure their survival. After what they've been subjected to in their history, you should be able to recognize the hand of God is still protecting His people.
I am not sure where you're going with the last paragraph. You'll have to explain that to me in a different way.
A few years back, I had a long and friendly correspondence with a member of the Lutheran ELCA, which as he explained it to me, is the liberal wing of the Lutheran denomination. We discussed politics, abortion, gun-control, euthanasia; about everything you can think of. He was looking for scriptures to support his liberal stance on political issues. As long as the conversation is civil, both parties can learn from a friendly exchange.
Regarding Israel, see this URL: christianforums.com/t7416676-3/#post53505038
Originally Posted by Faith.Man
I am not sure where you're going with the last paragraph. You'll have to explain that to me in a different way.
Disagreement is great. Believing you're right is great, so long as you're willing to seriously consider other positions. I just have a problem with people saying "such-and-such view is unscriptural" without showing that the scriptural support is incorrect. That's factionalism, and it prevents free thought. If you're not going to refute the scriptural support, I say your opinion should be stated as an opinion: "I don't see that in Scripture..."; "I subscribe to this other school of thought..."; or something like that.
Originally Posted by Faith.Man
A few years back, I had a long and friendly correspondence with a member of the Lutheran ELCA, which as he explained it to me, is the liberal wing of the Lutheran denomination. We discussed politics, abortion, gun-control, euthanasia; about everything you can think of. He was looking for scriptures to support his liberal stance on political issues. As long as the conversation is civil, both parties can learn from a friendly exchange.
I agree with everything in that quote. But if you had told him, "That's unscriptural," and then not refuted his scriptural support, I don't think he would have been willing to discuss with you further.
__________________ Do you convince people or just alienate them?
Think of the most wacky religion you know of. How would you lovingly witness to an adherent of it? Now how does that compare to your treatment of other types of differing opinions?
Regarding Israel, see this URL: christianforums.com/t7416676-3/#post53505038
Originally Posted by Faith.Man
I am not sure where you're going with the last paragraph. You'll have to explain that to me in a different way.
Disagreement is great. Believing you're right is great, so long as you're willing to seriously consider other positions. I just have a problem with people saying "such-and-such view is unscriptural" without showing that the scriptural support is incorrect. That's factionalism, and it prevents free thought. If you're not going to refute the scriptural support, I say your opinion should be stated as an opinion: "I don't see that in Scripture..."; "I subscribe to this other school of thought..."; or something like that.
Originally Posted by Faith.Man
A few years back, I had a long and friendly correspondence with a member of the Lutheran ELCA, which as he explained it to me, is the liberal wing of the Lutheran denomination. We discussed politics, abortion, gun-control, euthanasia; about everything you can think of. He was looking for scriptures to support his liberal stance on political issues. As long as the conversation is civil, both parties can learn from a friendly exchange.
I agree with everything in that quote. But if you had told him, "That's unscriptural," and then not refuted his scriptural support, I don't think he would have been willing to discuss with you further.
__________________ Do you convince people or just alienate them?
Think of the most wacky religion you know of. How would you lovingly witness to an adherent of it? Now how does that compare to your treatment of other types of differing opinions?
As a Christian, Conservative/Fundamentalist in belief, I cannot separate my Faith from how I look at and interact with God's creative work. So if I rightly believe that the Scriptures teach against abortion, teach against homosexuality, etc., which I believe they do, then I cannot in good faith support any political party or candidate who has views contrary to God's Word. Also, I cannot support any party or candidate who does not fully support the people and nation of Israel.
It's not about Republican or Democrat, it's about living your Faith. Anything less would be lukewarm faith, and we all know how God feels about that!
Do the Scriptures teach that we as believers ought not to do such things? Or do they teach that civil governments ought not to allow such things? I would say the former and not necessarily the latter.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. No guilt of life, no fear of death This is the power of Christ in me
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No power of hell, no scheme of man
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‘Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand
Do the Scriptures teach that we as believers ought not to do such things? Or do they teach that civil governments ought not to allow such things? I would say the former and not necessarily the latter.
We are responsible for our own actions.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God. (HCSB)
Paul's message here was to the Roman church, not a civil government. Most of us who know right from wrong, and are being taught by the scriptures to apply those teachings to our life.
Mar 12:14 When they came, they said to Him, "Teacher, we know You are truthful and defer to no one, for You don't show partiality but teach truthfully the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?
Mar 12:15 Should we pay, or should we not pay?" But knowing their hypocrisy, He said to them, "Why are you testing Me? Bring Me a denarius to look at."
Mar 12:16 So they brought one. "Whose image and inscription is this?" He asked them. "Caesar's," they said.
Mar 12:17 Then Jesus told them, "Give back to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him. (HCSB)
I could be wrong and if I am sure someone will point that out to me. But I don't believe the New Testament writers addressed civil government much, except with scriptures like the above.
Last edited by Faith.Man; 15th November 2009 at 10:45 PM.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God. (HCSB)
Paul's message here was to the Roman church, not a civil government. Most of us who know right from wrong, and are being taught by the scriptures to apply those teachings to our life.
Mar 12:14 When they came, they said to Him, "Teacher, we know You are truthful and defer to no one, for You don't show partiality but teach truthfully the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?
Mar 12:15 Should we pay, or should we not pay?" But knowing their hypocrisy, He said to them, "Why are you testing Me? Bring Me a denarius to look at."
Mar 12:16 So they brought one. "Whose image and inscription is this?" He asked them. "Caesar's," they said.
Mar 12:17 Then Jesus told them, "Give back to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him. (HCSB)
I could be wrong and if I am sure someone will point that out to me. But I don't believe the New Testament writers addressed civil government much, except with scriptures like the above.
Exactly so. Thus we are told we ought to live virtuous lives. But we are not told we are to coerce the ungodly to live virtuously. Rather, we can expect that they will not live as we might wish them to, unless we can lead them to Christ. To me, this implies a libertarian political philosophy, not social conservatism.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. No guilt of life, no fear of death This is the power of Christ in me
From life’s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
‘Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand
Do the Scriptures teach that we as believers ought not to do such things? Or do they teach that civil governments ought not to allow such things? I would say the former and not necessarily the latter.
Good point, and this could very well be a good reason for separation of politics and Christian faith.
My conservativeness comes from believing the Bible as the infallible Word of God and trying my best to apply the Bible to my everyday living. Politics is an altogether separate world, which is such a mixed bag of thoughts, opinions, and views that I just can't connect Christianity with any one party.
Here's what I think (at the risk of sounding like a broken record): While I agree that the Bible teaches against such things as gay marriage and abortion (and therefore don't condone them, myself), the Bible, at the same time, promotes helping others who are in need, and Jesus did this quite often when He was walking the earth in human form. Put these together, and this places me in the middle (therefore, moderate) politically, and I'm in the hopes that there will someday be a party which will recognize all of the above points, which I feel to be the best ideas of the both the left and the right. Furthermore, I also believe there is a lack of morals in politics, in general. Not just Democrats; not just Republicans; but all of politics. And how many of them are so lily-white that they really follow through on every single one of their promises and causes they claim to support? So, there you go... I find that when it comes to such matters, I sometimes don't relate to some on this forum. No offense; I'm simply not politically-minded.
Thankfully, there's Bridge Builders!
__________________ "Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever." -- Psalm 136:1
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