The Antichrist: An Alien?

garry2 · #**101** 1st November 2009, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by zeke37

so, you think that Satan is already cast down here in Rev12?

that would mean that he would be here for his short season...how long is that short season eh ? ? ?

so you think that? really?

As I never said that, it's unlikely I think that, read again what I posted.

satan isn't a prisoner in Heaven. he is the prince of the power of the air, the first heaven. he roams the earth and he goes to the third Heaven, before the throne to lie to God about the chosen, and he goes to Heaven to make war with the holy angels, he prevents holy angels from coming to earth, except michael who is more powerful than he, he couldn't prevent the two angels who came with Christ when they supped with abraham etc. he goes where he want's until he is bound after Christs return.

Read the scriptures I posted.

Achilles6129 · #**102** 2nd November 2009, 09:23 PM

Posted by NJBeliever:

"The Bible just doesn't support what you're saying."

Your reply:

"well...according to your understanding, maybe not...
but according to mine, The Word certainly does line up with my understanding."

Zeke, much of what you post is speculation (and some of it is just plain wrong), yet you attempt to pass it off as fact. In short, you cannot prove that what you are saying is true. We are to accept the "fact" that the false prophet is Satan based upon the description of him speaking like a dragon/looking like a lamb. I will show later in this post that both of these descriptions in no way, shape, or form prove that the false prophet is Satan.

I will also prove, in this post, that the antichrist (yes, that is the correct terminology) is in fact the first beast of Revelation 13, not the second, and I will give you Scriptures to prove it so you may address them.

"the false prophet is a title for Satan...
and he is the one who does miracles..."

Zeke, you can prove no such thing. This is all speculation. You are identifying the false prophet with Satan because he looks like a lamb and speaks like a dragon, so let's look at this description a little closer:

"11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." Rev. 13:11

Zeke, this description does not say what you believe it is saying. The fact that the false prophet looks like a lamb refers to his apparent innocence, and the fact that he speaks like a dragon refers to his deceitfulness. I will now show that being "like a lamb" or "like a dragon" are in no way indicative of an individual being Satan.

"34Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out." Jer. 51:34

Well, apparently Nebuchadnezzar is literally Satan. Which is odd, considering his comments in Dan. 4.

"Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself." Eze. 29:3

Apparently Pharaoh is literally Satan as well.

"3Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves." Lu. 10:3

This must mean the disciples are attempting to impersonate Jesus Christ.

"So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs." Jn. 21:15

More disciples attempting to impersonate Christ.

Do you see, Zeke? Just because the false prophet is "like a lamb" does not mean he is attempting to impersonate Christ! In the same way, just because he "speaks like a dragon" does not at all mean he is Satan, but is a reference to his deceitfulness. In other words, the false prophet appears innocent, but his words are untrue.

"there is only one son of Perdition.
Satan the devil. Ez28, Rev12, 17, 20"

Not one single time in the entire Bible is Satan referred to as the "son of perdition". Those chapters do not refer to Satan as the son of perdition. Not to mention the fact that you are wrong anyways, because Judas Iscariot is referred to as the son of perdition (and no, Judas Iscariot is not Satan).

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Jn. 17:12

"so the false prophet and the son of Perdition do the same things...
they are the same individual,
which is really the supernatural fallen angel ....
the 2nd beast in Rev13, called Satan and the devil."

There is absolutely, positively, NO proof of this Zeke. Just because the AC's coming is with power/signs/lying wonders in 2 Th. 2 in no way makes him the false prophet in Rev. 13. If you read closely, you will see that with the FIRST BEAST'S coming the world "wonders" after him, which explains the verses in 2 Th. 2. The false prophet supports the AC in all of his Antichrist endeavours.

But let me get more to the point. I said above that I was going to prove that, in fact, it is the first beast that is the AC, not the second beast, as you claim. I will do this now:

"5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." Rev. 13:5

"6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven." Rev. 13:6

"24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." Dan. 7:24-25

The "little horn" of Dan. 7 does the EXACT SAME THINGS as the first beast in Revelation 13, not the second. In these two verses, we can plainly see that the little horn speaks great words against God (just like the FIRST beast) and he rules for 3.5 years (just like the first beast, again). Here it is again in Daniel:

"36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done." Dan. 11:36

The same exact 3 individuals are all in view here, and they are all doing the same things. More proof the first beast of Rev. 13 is the AC:

"7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Rev. 13:7

" 20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;" Dan. 7:20-21

So we can plainly see that the little horn of Daniel 7, who is the antichrist, is the same entity who is in view in the FIRST beast of Revelation 13, all attempts at speculation notwithstanding.

The question is, will you address these verses in Daniel and Revelation, which clearly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the AC is the first beast? To be clear, the first beast can be representative of both the AC and his global kingdom. Kind of like how the lion with eagles' wings in Daniel 7 represents both Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian Empire (I will not attempt to prove this now).

"the Beast Nation is coming soon and it's leader is going to make a grand entrance and pretend to be God returned...looking like a lamb even....
he is coming to play church...not to kill.
infact he is not allowed to by God's order,
in Rev9 he and his locust army are only allowed to sting the people(deceive them), hurt them not kill them...
and Luke21 promises protection for the rest who are not fooled and are faithful till the end"

Zeke, what about those verses in Revelation 13 about the AC "making war with the saints, and overcoming them"? What about the Daniel verses? What about these verses:

"9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. " Mt. 24:9

"9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. " Rev. 6:9-11

The AC is going to attempt to kill all real Christians, as is evidenced by a plethora of verses in the Bible, and he is going to be successful. He is not going to "play church". You have taken both Luke 21 and Rev. 9 out of context, and misinterpreted them. No one is going to be playing any games, Zeke:

" 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Rev. 13:15

So I guess my question for you is this: Will you address the relationship between the first beast and the "little horn" of the book of Daniel, using only the Scriptures, and without any speculation on your part? It has been proven that this relationship exists, and, like it or not, this proves that the first beast of Revelation is in fact the AC.

zeke37 · #**103** 4th November 2009, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Achilles6129

Posted by NJBeliever:

"The Bible just doesn't support what you're saying."

Your reply:

"well...according to your understanding, maybe not...
but according to mine, The Word certainly does line up with my understanding."

Zeke, much of what you post is speculation (and some of it is just plain wrong), yet you attempt to pass it off as fact.

Hi

might take 2 pages to reply properly

as I said in the above quote you placed, it is my understanding

In short, you cannot prove that what you are saying is true. We are to accept the "fact" that the false prophet is Satan based upon the description of him speaking like a dragon/looking like a lamb. I will show later in this post that both of these descriptions in no way, shape, or form prove that the false prophet is Satan.

that is not the only reason at all friend/brethren

the son of Perdition of 2Thes2 is the false prophet of Rev13:11,
the mouth of the first beast in Rev13
they are all one in the same. they do the same things

the son of Perdition is Satan as shown in Ez28, Rev12/17/20

Satan is cast here for short season
and is clearly going to be against Christians as told in Rev12

I will also prove, in this post, that the antichrist (yes, that is the correct terminology) is in fact the first beast of Revelation 13, not the second, and I will give you Scriptures to prove it so you may address them.

the mouth of the first beast, is the second beast
who is the son of Perdition of Rev13, called by many the antiChrist.

"the false prophet is a title for Satan...
and he is the one who does miracles..."

Zeke, you can prove no such thing. This is all speculation. You are identifying the false prophet with Satan because he looks like a lamb and speaks like a dragon, so let's look at this description a little closer:

"11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." Rev. 13:11

Zeke, this description does not say what you believe it is saying. The fact that the false prophet looks like a lamb refers to his apparent innocence, and the fact that he speaks like a dragon refers to his deceitfulness. I will now show that being "like a lamb" or "like a dragon" are in no way indicative of an individual being Satan.

while I agree with you about the innocence vs deceptiveness,
the very last time we heard both of these descriptions,
one was refering to Christ in Rev5, being the lamb,
and the other to Satan being the dragon in Rev12.

the Bible explains itself rather well.

"34Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out." Jer. 51:34

Well, apparently Nebuchadnezzar is literally Satan. Which is odd, considering his comments in Dan. 4.

early in his biblical accounts,
Neb was certainly a type for the antiChrist,

but he was a man and reformed
many types in the Word of God
so it is quite ironic that you picked this example,
since his type is for Satan (who I say is the antiChrist).

"Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself." Eze. 29:3

Apparently Pharaoh is literally Satan as well.

no but another type.....another ironic scripture

"3Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves." Lu. 10:3

This must mean the disciples are attempting to impersonate Jesus Christ.

"So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs." Jn. 21:15

More disciples attempting to impersonate Christ.

na.... they are with Christ, as he is their Shephard.

who will be the lambs of the bad shephard? that is the question

the bad shephard/Satan cast from heaven to earth in Rev12, being the mouth of a political beast in Rev13, later more fully described as the miracle doing, deceiving, mark placing beast of Rev13:11f.

there are
2 trees in the midst
2 cedarsof Lebannon
2 shephards,
2 morning stars,
2 lambs,
2 coming messiahs
2 prophets,
2 riders of the white horse,

only One is Christ, the other is Satan

we are supposed to see both...and understand who both are

Do you see, Zeke? Just because the false prophet is "like a lamb" does not mean he is attempting to impersonate Christ! In the same way, just because he "speaks like a dragon" does not at all mean he is Satan, but is a reference to his deceitfulness. In other words, the false prophet appears innocent, but his words are untrue.

again, agree with the deceifullness under the guise of innocence,
but that only leads credance to my understanding anyway

the son of Perdition is Satan
Satan is cast here to earth
the false prophet does the same things as the son of Perdition does,
hence the son of Perdtiion/false prophet are the same
Satan...
otherwise why the info in Rev12,
about Satan being cast down here to earth for a short season
to go after the Christians etc...
and, that Satan goes into perdition in Rev12/17/20

"there is only one son of Perdition.
Satan the devil. Ez28, Rev12, 17, 20"

Not one single time in the entire Bible is Satan referred to as the "son of perdition".

he goes into perdition in Ez28, and Rev12, 17, 20.

Those chapters do not refer to Satan as the son of perdition. Not to mention the fact that you are wrong anyways, because Judas Iscariot is referred to as the son of perdition (and no, Judas Iscariot is not Satan).

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Jn. 17:12

Judas is not mentioned at all in the above scripture...

God gave Jesus to ALL of us...not just 12.

might be Judas who is implied, but he is not mentioned...

plus he repented, tried to get the crucifixion stopped and was murdered for it...

we should let God judge Judas.

but Satan would fit that description IMO.

"

so the false prophet and the son of Perdition do the same things...
they are the same individual,
which is really the supernatural fallen angel ....
the 2nd beast in Rev13, called Satan and the devil."

There is absolutely, positively, NO proof of this Zeke. Just because the AC's coming is with power/signs/lying wonders in 2 Th. 2 in no way makes him the false prophet in Rev. 13. If you read closely, you will see that with the FIRST BEAST'S coming the world "wonders" after him, which explains the verses in 2 Th. 2. The false prophet supports the AC in all of his Antichrist endeavours.

they are the same guy...
they all have the same details..
wanting to be and being worshiped as God...
plus as I said already, Satan is the son of Perdition...
sentenced to soul death in E28, and Rev12/17/20

no one else has that privilage named by name in the bible, but Satan

Satan is the one cast out of heaven and to the earth for a short season in Rev12

then, we learn of a political beast in Rev13....

and then we learn that the multiheaded political beast has a mouth....

and then we learn about that mouth in more detail,
as the second beast in Rev13,verses 11 forward.

But let me get more to the point. I said above that I was going to prove that, in fact, it is the first beast that is the AC, not the second beast, as you claim. I will do this now:

"5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." Rev. 13:5

"6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven." Rev. 13:6

"24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." Dan. 7:24-25

The "little horn" of Dan. 7 does the EXACT SAME THINGS as the first beast in Revelation 13, not the second. In these two verses, we can plainly see that the little horn speaks great words against God (just like the FIRST beast) and he rules for 3.5 years (just like the first beast, again). Here it is again in Daniel:

"36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done." Dan. 11:36

The same exact 3 individuals are all in view here, and they are all doing the same things. More proof the first beast of Rev. 13 is the AC:

"7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Rev. 13:7

not quite...the first beast's mouth is the second beast,
who is the false prophet and son of Perdition...
same guy...
and yes, the same guy in Dan.

the first beast in Rev13 is not an individual,
but a multiheaded political faction...the NWO so to speak...

that NWO has a mouth....
a leader...I contend it is going to eventually be Satan himself

when Satan is cast out of heaven and to the earth for a short season,
he becomes the mouth of the political beast...
turns it all religious...with him as God...
fooling the world, including Christians...
that is how he overcomes them...

beguiling them...wholly seducing them...virgins to whores...

that mouth is further defined later in the 13th chapter as the 2nd beast...

" 20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;" Dan. 7:20-21

So we can plainly see that the little horn of Daniel 7, who is the antichrist, is the same entity who is in view in the FIRST beast of Revelation 13, all attempts at speculation notwithstanding.

again, not quite...
he is the mouth(leader/king/horn) of the first beast(NWO)...
who I say is the second beast....same guy.

zeke37 · #**104** 4th November 2009, 12:26 AM

The question is, will you address these verses in Daniel and Revelation, which clearly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the AC is the first beast? To be clear, the first beast can be representative of both the AC and his global kingdom. Kind of like how the lion with eagles' wings in Daniel 7 represents both Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian Empire (I will not attempt to prove this now).

I have shown my understanding and why...
the first beast is a multiheaded NWO,
which has an individual as it's mouth...
this mouth is the second beast in Rev13,
called the faslse prophet and son of Perdition in 2Thes2
and little horn in Dan, as well as the lawless one...
and refered to as antiChrist,
and he who comes instead of Christ (in his name) in the Olivet prophesy.

many names and title...

"the Beast Nation is coming soon and it's leader is going to make a grand entrance and pretend to be God returned...looking like a lamb even....
he is coming to play church...not to kill.
infact he is not allowed to by God's order,
in Rev9 he and his locust army are only allowed to sting the people(deceive them), hurt them not kill them...
and Luke21 promises protection for the rest who are not fooled and are faithful till the end"

Zeke, what about those verses in Revelation 13 about the AC "making war with the saints, and overcoming them"?

I explained that above...
they are deceived by the flood of lies that comes from the dragon's mouth...
he claimsto be Jesus returned...
even looking the part

that's what stung means, with regards to the Locust army stingings
in Rev9 but they are not killed...

What about the Daniel verses? What about these verses:

"9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. " Mt. 24:9

read it in Luke21 for a greater understanding IMO...

7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19In your patience possess ye your souls.

hard to be put to a physical death
if Christ has primised that
not even a hair on your head will perish
right?

Satan has many names...
one of them is death itself..
he has the power of death.......
Heb2

there shall be a witness of the elect,
against Satan the false Christ

and they shall be put infront of Satan for this testimony/trial...
as the rest of the world thinks he is Jesus on earth...and they do not.

IMO this happens in the very last few days of the trib,
connecting Rev2:10 and Rev10's scroll

delivered up to Satan, but not killed....
God has a reason for them to be there,
and they are of those who are gathered alive at His Coming...

they have to speak this miracle of the Holy Spirit,
as in ACTS2, and prophesied in Joel 2
where the world will here it and it will be the last declaration
of the Gospel, worldwide, before Christ returns.

"9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. " Rev. 6:9-11

ya, this is, in my opinion all the martyrs of the past,
from John the Baptist up till now even...and beyond...
but not in the final 1/2 hour of temtpation...
when Satan is physically here on earth.

he canntot kill anyone, as ordered by God...
but Satan does eventually break this rule with the 2 Olive Trees of Rev11.

only the two individual olive trees shall be killed then,
and that only 3 days before Christ arrives....

the rest of the Christian election are protected....
again, that is if they are elect....

the rest of the Christians are fooled/beguiled/seduced/deceived
by the false prophet/false lamb/false Christ/......
who is the individual miracle doing, lying, peace bringing, entity,
the supernatural fallen angel, Satan.

they are whoring for him in that time,
instead of being patient/waiting and being virginous for Christ...as Paul would warn us about in 2Cor11...

1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

The AC is going to attempt to kill all real Christians, as is evidenced by a plethora of verses in the Bible, and he is going to be successful.

there are no verses that say that at all...
you are the one speculating this

he will be successful in
overcoming/
beguiling/
seducing/
deceiving/
turning Christians who were supposed to be virgins for Christ
(waiting in purity for our Husband) into whores for him...

that is his war...
not chopping off heads...
he's coming to play church.

the understanding you have was fueled imo,
by Hollywood movies like "Left Behind"
and fictional literature like "Dante's inferno"...
and then by doomsday preachers who try to scare us into belief...

He is not going to "play church". You have taken both Luke 21 and Rev. 9 out of context, and misinterpreted them. No one is going to be playing any games, Zeke:

lol...games no...deception yep.//./..

he will pretend to be Christ...
it'll be the biggest church time in all history...
the whole world will whore after him...all but the elect.

" 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Rev. 13:15

should is a big threat...

here is a possibility...(if this is the false Christ, then the threat may be from him, that "if you don't think I'm Jesus, then you'll be thrown in the lake of fire"...

he's pretending to be Jesus Christ returned...God

who can war with the beast? no one can if it is world wide...

So I guess my question for you is this: Will you address the relationship between the first beast and the "little horn" of the book of Daniel, using only the Scriptures, and without any speculation on your part? It has been proven that this relationship exists, and, like it or not, this proves that the first beast of Revelation is in fact the AC.

I have already said that the first beast in Rev13 has a mouth...
that mouth is the second beast in Rev13,
who is the false prophet/antiChrist/son of Perdition/little horn etc....

you are dividing a character into more than one,
and that character needs no division for he is only one individual...
Satan the supernatural fallen angel,
miracle doing false lamb,
appearing as an angel of light,
but being of darkness...
fooling /beguiling/seducing the world....
especially Christians.

turning them from virgins for Christ, into whores for the devil.

all but those God elected to witness against Satan's claim of being God.

chow!

NJBeliever · #**105** 4th November 2009, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Achilles6129

Posted by NJBeliever:

"The Bible just doesn't support what you're saying."

Your reply:

"well...according to your understanding, maybe not...
but according to mine, The Word certainly does line up with my understanding."

Zeke, much of what you post is speculation (and some of it is just plain wrong), yet you attempt to pass it off as fact. In short, you cannot prove that what you are saying is true. We are to accept the "fact" that the false prophet is Satan based upon the description of him speaking like a dragon/looking like a lamb. I will show later in this post that both of these descriptions in no way, shape, or form prove that the false prophet is Satan.

I will also prove, in this post, that the antichrist (yes, that is the correct terminology) is in fact the first beast of Revelation 13, not the second, and I will give you Scriptures to prove it so you may address them.

"the false prophet is a title for Satan...
and he is the one who does miracles..."

Zeke, you can prove no such thing. This is all speculation. You are identifying the false prophet with Satan because he looks like a lamb and speaks like a dragon, so let's look at this description a little closer:

"11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." Rev. 13:11

Zeke, this description does not say what you believe it is saying. The fact that the false prophet looks like a lamb refers to his apparent innocence, and the fact that he speaks like a dragon refers to his deceitfulness. I will now show that being "like a lamb" or "like a dragon" are in no way indicative of an individual being Satan.

"34Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out." Jer. 51:34

Well, apparently Nebuchadnezzar is literally Satan. Which is odd, considering his comments in Dan. 4.

"Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself." Eze. 29:3

Apparently Pharaoh is literally Satan as well.

"3Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves." Lu. 10:3

This must mean the disciples are attempting to impersonate Jesus Christ.

"So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs." Jn. 21:15

More disciples attempting to impersonate Christ.

Do you see, Zeke? Just because the false prophet is "like a lamb" does not mean he is attempting to impersonate Christ! In the same way, just because he "speaks like a dragon" does not at all mean he is Satan, but is a reference to his deceitfulness. In other words, the false prophet appears innocent, but his words are untrue.

"there is only one son of Perdition.
Satan the devil. Ez28, Rev12, 17, 20"

Not one single time in the entire Bible is Satan referred to as the "son of perdition". Those chapters do not refer to Satan as the son of perdition. Not to mention the fact that you are wrong anyways, because Judas Iscariot is referred to as the son of perdition (and no, Judas Iscariot is not Satan).

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Jn. 17:12

"so the false prophet and the son of Perdition do the same things...
they are the same individual,
which is really the supernatural fallen angel ....
the 2nd beast in Rev13, called Satan and the devil."

There is absolutely, positively, NO proof of this Zeke. Just because the AC's coming is with power/signs/lying wonders in 2 Th. 2 in no way makes him the false prophet in Rev. 13. If you read closely, you will see that with the FIRST BEAST'S coming the world "wonders" after him, which explains the verses in 2 Th. 2. The false prophet supports the AC in all of his Antichrist endeavours.

But let me get more to the point. I said above that I was going to prove that, in fact, it is the first beast that is the AC, not the second beast, as you claim. I will do this now:

"5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." Rev. 13:5

"6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven." Rev. 13:6

"24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." Dan. 7:24-25

The "little horn" of Dan. 7 does the EXACT SAME THINGS as the first beast in Revelation 13, not the second. In these two verses, we can plainly see that the little horn speaks great words against God (just like the FIRST beast) and he rules for 3.5 years (just like the first beast, again). Here it is again in Daniel:

"36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done." Dan. 11:36

The same exact 3 individuals are all in view here, and they are all doing the same things. More proof the first beast of Rev. 13 is the AC:

"7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Rev. 13:7

" 20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;" Dan. 7:20-21

So we can plainly see that the little horn of Daniel 7, who is the antichrist, is the same entity who is in view in the FIRST beast of Revelation 13, all attempts at speculation notwithstanding.

The question is, will you address these verses in Daniel and Revelation, which clearly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the AC is the first beast? To be clear, the first beast can be representative of both the AC and his global kingdom. Kind of like how the lion with eagles' wings in Daniel 7 represents both Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian Empire (I will not attempt to prove this now).

"the Beast Nation is coming soon and it's leader is going to make a grand entrance and pretend to be God returned...looking like a lamb even....
he is coming to play church...not to kill.
infact he is not allowed to by God's order,
in Rev9 he and his locust army are only allowed to sting the people(deceive them), hurt them not kill them...
and Luke21 promises protection for the rest who are not fooled and are faithful till the end"

Zeke, what about those verses in Revelation 13 about the AC "making war with the saints, and overcoming them"? What about the Daniel verses? What about these verses:

"9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. " Mt. 24:9

"9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. " Rev. 6:9-11

The AC is going to attempt to kill all real Christians, as is evidenced by a plethora of verses in the Bible, and he is going to be successful. He is not going to "play church". You have taken both Luke 21 and Rev. 9 out of context, and misinterpreted them. No one is going to be playing any games, Zeke:

" 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Rev. 13:15

So I guess my question for you is this: Will you address the relationship between the first beast and the "little horn" of the book of Daniel, using only the Scriptures, and without any speculation on your part? It has been proven that this relationship exists, and, like it or not, this proves that the first beast of Revelation is in fact the AC.

Exactly.

zeke37 · #**106** 5th November 2009, 05:39 AM

imo, Rev6:9's "rest" are only the two witnesses (two Olive Trees).
Satan hs orders not to kill anyone in Rev9
but at the end of the trib,
he breaks that order,
and kills the two olive trees

3 days later, Christ returns...

because of Rev9's orders to Satan and Luke21's promise to the witnesses,
I believe that the elect alive on earth at that time,
are not killed off,
but are protected for a purpose.

and anyone that is not elect,
would be, by default, fooled by the false Christ
who must come first to try to deceivce you...
get you to worship him...as God (Christ returned)
even if it is by disguise/pretence/lies.

he shall pretend to be Jesus returned,
and seduce the bride
deceive the churches

and as said above, should in Rev13:15 is a threat...
if he's playin' Jesus, pretending to be Jesus..then...
either believe that lie,
or
the threat is that you'll fry in the Lake of Fire.

but yet, we know that Rev9 gives Satan's limitations
and Luke21 promises protection to those who are delivered up to him
who's name is also death (Heb2)

they are protected, and full of truth,
with a witness to make against Satan
and that truth is what is
keeping them from ANY temptation
in that final hour ....

the temptation is

will you believe the false Christ is Jesus returned and worship him

the 5 virgins that run off to get oil at the last secomd,
are the ones that worship the false Christ

the one that is taken, from WORK in the FIELD,
or WATCHING on the rooftop,
or GRINDING AT THE MILL,

is taken in deceit by the false Christ.....
taken by the flood of lies that comes from his mouth...
taken by the false miracles that he does, and his supernatural abilities.

but the ones that are left, are WORKING, WATCHING, GRINDING when the Master does come

because God has elected them to be that way

the elect are sealed with truth/oil in therir minds
they won't be tempted at all...
'cause they got the oil in their lamps..
they know that the false one must come first, before Christ,
to try to deceive the world.
to beguile the bride

some of the elect will witness the truth
against Satan(antiChrist) in the final days...

they are the ones that are alive on earth
to be gathered together (harpazo)
when Christ Comes with the Dead from Heaven
to raise them as promised.....

they are not systomatically killed off
or hunted down and exterminated

that is fiction, even if well intended fiction.

Achilles6129 · #**107** 5th November 2009, 05:17 PM

Note that this reply is only to Zeke's two posts in response to mine. I have not addressed Zeke's last post. I will probably have to divide this up into two posts.

Alright, let's take this one part at a time. I might take some of your text out of chronological order, but that is just to make it easier to reply.

"the son of Perdition is Satan as shown in Ez28, Rev12/17/20"
And where in Ezekiel 28, Rev. 12, 17, or 20 is Satan called the son of Perdition? Nowhere. In other words, the referencing Satan with the "son of Perdition" is something that you do, not that the Bible does.

"the son of Perdition of 2Thes2 is the false prophet of Rev13:11,
the mouth of the first beast in Rev13
they are all one in the same. they do the same things"

So, the son of perdition of 2 Th. 2 is the false prophet of Rev. 13...because they "do the same things"? They are working together, Zeke. Just because they are working together in accomplishing the same goal does not mean they are the same entity. Let's take a look at some of these verses a little more closely to get some more detail for anyone else who might not know what we are talking about:

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders," 2 Th. 2:9

So, you are essentially equating this verse with this one in Revelation:
"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men," Rev. 13:13

On the surface, this might seem like a reasonable comparison, but if we dig a little deeper, we find out that it doesn't hold up. As I pointed out in my last post, the power/signs/lying wonders are the reason why the world WONDERS after the beast in this verse:

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Rev. 13:3

"...and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." Rev. 18:8

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Mt. 24:24

The false Christ (first beast) and the false prophet (second beast) both show signs/wonders. The first beast's COMING is with power/signs/lying wonders, which is why the world wonders after the first beast. And let me forestall a claim you will make, Zeke - the "false Christs, and false prophets" in this verse are NOT equating, although they are singular (not plural). There is a false Christ and a false prophet to come, they are not the same entity.

Now, to further prove that the first beast is the "son of perdition" as shown in 2 Th. 2, (which you actually partially admit to, which I will get to later), consider the following sequence of verses:

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Th. 2:4

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven." Rev. 13:6

We can see that it is in fact the first beast, not the second, that lines up with the son of perdition in 2 Th. 2. You get around this problem by claiming that the second beast is in fact fused into the first beast, which you have no proof for (and I will address this in a sec.).

" the mouth of the first beast, is the second beast
who is the son of Perdition of Rev13, called by many the antiChrist."

Zeke, you do not have ANY proof at all that the mouth of the first beast is the false prophet. You simply say this because it is the only way to get around the very obvious fact that the first beast is the little horn of Daniel and the son of perdition in 2 Th. 2 (both of which I have shown with Scriptures). The way to make the false prophet the AC is to claim that the false prophet is a "part" of the first beast, when there is not a single syllable in the Bible that says any such thing. As a matter of fact, if you look closely, it says otherwise:

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." Rev. 13:11

The false prophet is presented as a distinct entity from the first beast in Revelation several times, and they are also presented as distinct entities in Mt. 24:24 (and no, the terms are not equating. I have never seen one Bible version which presents the terms as equating).

Bottom line is this: You are going to have to come up with real proof that the mouth of the first beast is the false prophet. You have never been able to show any such thing, nor will you ever be able, because the mouth of the first beast is not the false prophet.

"while I agree with you about the innocence vs deceptiveness,
the very last time we heard both of these descriptions,
one was refering to Christ in Rev5, being the lamb,
and the other to Satan being the dragon in Rev12."

That proves nothing. If Satan were spiritually behind the false prophet, wouldn't the false prophet speak "like a dragon"? Yes. Zeke, we have three separate individuals here: Satan, the first beast, and the false prophet. Satan is spiritually behind the entire thing, and supporting the first beast and the false prophet. They are all working together to try to accomplish the same thing. Obviously, this will make them all SIMILAR, yet they will be actually separate individuals:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev. 20:10

This one verse dynamites your theory that the devil = the false prophet. I have heard this verse quoted to you in the past, and do not remember how you attempt to get around it, so I will quote it again. Here's another verse which refutes your claim again:

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet...These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." Rev. 19:20

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit,..." Rev. 20:1-2, 3

Satan goes to the bottomless pit for 1000 yrs, while the false prophet goes to the lake of fire forever. The bottomless pit is not the lake of fire, not to mention that Satan goes to the bottomless pit AFTER the false prophet goes to the lake of fire. They are two separate individuals, and are always talked about that way in Revelation. Here's another verse which shows exactly what I'm talking about:

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet." Rev. 16:13

They are three separate entities, Zeke. This verse, if cross-referenced with Rev. 20:10 (which proves it) will show that the dragon, beast, and false prophet are separate, not together. However, they are all attempting to succeed in a common cause...like that Three Musketeers' motto: "All for one, one for all."

"early in his biblical accounts,
Neb was certainly a type for the antiChrist,

but he was a man and reformed
many types in the Word of God
so it is quite ironic that you picked this example,
since his type is for Satan (who I say is the antiChrist)."

Zeke, I'm not sure you got my point on quoting the Jer. 51:34 verse (and subsequent verse about Pharaoh). The point is that Nebuchadnezzar is not literally Satan just because he is described as a "dragon" (and you yourself say he was a man). Nebuchadnezzar was described as a "dragon" because of certain qualities which he possessed, which you accurately said in your reply. This proves that just because the false prophet speaks "like a dragon" it doesn't mean he's literally Satan, as you claim. Rather, the false prophet is described as "speaking like a dragon" because of his deceitfulness (which you agreed with).

"there are
2 trees in the midst
2 cedarsof Lebannon
2 shephards,
2 morning stars,
2 lambs,
2 coming messiahs
2 prophets,
2 riders of the white horse,

only One is Christ, the other is Satan"

And not one single time is the name "Satan" ever interspersed among the descriptions you just gave. Further, there are not "two lambs" Zeke. There is only ONE Lamb. Rev. 13 makes clear that the false prophet has two horns "like a lamb", which is a description I have already shown does not necessarily mean he is impersonating Christ.
Several of the descriptions you give are iffy, at best. Of the others, it is more accurate to say that one is Christ and the other is the Antichrist. And the antichrist is not literally Satan (which is shown by Rev. 20:10, again, and other verses).

I said: "Not one single time in the entire Bible is Satan referred to as the "son of perdition"."
You reply: "he goes into perdition in Ez28, and Rev12, 17, 20."

You are avoiding the statement, Zeke. You cannot produce one single verse in the entire 31, 089 verses in the Bible that states that Satan is the son of perdition. Obviously Satan "goes into perdition", as does every single last person who goes to the lake of fire in Rev. 20:12-15, so that proves nothing.

continued in next post

Achilles6129 · #**108** 5th November 2009, 05:21 PM

I quoted this verse: "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Jn. 17:12

Your reply: "Judas is not mentioned at all in the above scripture...
God gave Jesus to ALL of us...not just 12.
might be Judas who is implied, but he is not mentioned...
plus he repented, tried to get the crucifixion stopped and was murdered for it...
we should let God judge Judas.
but Satan would fit that description IMO."

Zeke, quite frankly, no one in their right mind would doubt that the above verse is referring to Judas. You admit that Judas is "implied" and then you say that Satan would fit the description mentioned in this verse. Which is it? Further, God has already let everyone know that Judas is going to the lake of fire, it's not a big secret, and it's ok to say it. And, Judas was not murdered, he committed suicide:

"Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." Mt. 27:3-5

Referring to the false prophet and the son of perdition, you state:

" they are the same guy...
they all have the same details..
wanting to be and being worshiped as God..."

Now you are just reading into the Bible. Not one single time is the false prophet mentioned as being worshipped...but guess who IS mentioned as being worshipped?

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" Rev. 13:4

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13:8

And, ironically Zeke (as you would say), it is in fact the false prophet (who you believe is the AC) who causes the earth to worship the first beast (who is the real AC). Strange that the false prophet, if he is the AC, does not demand this honor for himself, isn't it?

"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Rev. 13:12

"they are deceived by the flood of lies that comes from the dragon's mouth...
he claimsto be Jesus returned...
even looking the part

that's what stung means, with regards to the Locust army stingings
in Rev9 but they are not killed..."

More conjecture I see. Are you planning to present any verses that prove what you're saying, or are you just planning to make assertions and expect others to believe you? This has become a common theme, Zeke. There is no proof that the flood that comes from the dragon's mouth is lies (it could be war, for instance). There is no proof that the locust army "stings" are a reference to deceiving people.

In regards to Luke 21 you state:

"hard to be put to a physical death
if Christ has primised that
not even a hair on your head will perish
right?"

Except that you are misreading it, for in fact the "not a hair on your head shall perish" is a reference to their ETERNAL LIFE, not to their physical life. Christ says, in the very chapter you quote, that they will be KILLED, and you even underlined this when you quoted it. The very context of the verse itself proves that Christ is talking about their eternal life, not their physical life:

"But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls." Lu. 21:18-19

It is their eternal life that is being talked about. They are physically being tortured and killed, which is shown elsewhere in the Bible, in verses I have already quoted, and will not re-quote, b/c I will get to them later. However, nothing can really harm them, because their eternal life is secure. So no matter what is physically done to them, they cannot be truly harmed. God will protect them even in death, no matter what.

"Satan has many names...
one of them is death itself..
he has the power of death.......
Heb2"

Satan is not once referred to as "death" in the Bible. Not one single time.

"there shall be a witness of the elect,
against Satan the false Christ
and they shall be put infront of Satan for this testimony/trial...
as the rest of the world thinks he is Jesus on earth...and they do not.
IMO this happens in the very last few days of the trib,
connecting Rev2:10 and Rev10's scroll
delivered up to Satan, but not killed....
God has a reason for them to be there,
and they are of those who are gathered alive at His Coming..."

Except that the individuals referred to in Rev. 2:10 are specifically mentioned as being killed, so it is difficult for them to be gathered alive at Christ's coming:

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Rev. 2:10

I take issue with your entire sequence of events anyways, but at this point that doesn't really matter.

I quoted the "fifth seal" verse at you and you respond:

"ya, this is, in my opinion all the martyrs of the past,
from John the Baptist up till now even...and beyond...
but not in the final 1/2 hour of temtpation...
when Satan is physically here on earth."

Except that you cannot prove this (at least you mentioned it was your opinion, instead of stating it as fact!), again, and I have powerful circumstantial evidence to indicate that those mentioned in the fifth seal are slain during the tribulation, by mentioning two points:

#1 - The first seal is the AC (you and I actually agree on this). Therefore, the fifth seal would chronologically take place after the AC's arrival, so it makes no sense to mention the martyrs of the past.
#2 - Compare these two verses:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimonywhich they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" Rev. 6:9-10

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 20:4

Both "witness" and "testimony" in these two verses are the same word, #3141. Therefore, because of the congruency between both verses, those in the fifth seal are those slain DURING the tribulation.

continued in next post

Achilles6129 · #**109** 5th November 2009, 05:22 PM

"he canntot kill anyone, as ordered by God...
but Satan does eventually break this rule with the 2 Olive Trees of Rev11."

This interpretation is just false, Zeke. You have been presented verses before that show you that the AC not only does kill people, but he goes after all real Christians (note that I already debunked your Luke 21 interpretation). I will repost them for your convenience:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." Mt. 24:9

"Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death." Mr. 13:12

"And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death." Lu. 21:16

"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Rev. 13:15

"the rest of the Christian election are protected....
again, that is if they are elect...."

They are protected from eternal death. They are most certainly NOT protected from physical death, in fact, they are ENCOURAGED TO DIE:

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Rev. 14:13

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Rev. 6:11

God is waiting for MORE CHRISTIANS TO DIE before he destroys the world. Why is that? Because by their deaths they are saving their souls:

"Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Lu. 17:32-33

"Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints." Ps. 116:15

Essentially, their death for refusing the mark of the beast is counted as their death on the cross of Jesus Christ, something which must be accomplished if one is to be saved (Mt. 16:24-25, etc.).

"the understanding you have was fueled imo,
by Hollywood movies like "Left Behind"
and fictional literature like "Dante's inferno"...
and then by doomsday preachers who try to scare us into belief..."

Negative. I don't even care about Left Behind, and may have read like 1 book when I was young. "Dante's Inferno"?!?! Are you serious? I don't even want to read Dante's Inferno, nor do I care in the slightest bit what Dante or anyone else has to say. However, Zeke, from what I have heard, the "understanding that you have" has been fueled by an individual named Arnold Murray. The understanding I have is fueled by nothing but the Bible. You, however, cannot produce verses to support what you are saying.

"that is his war...
not chopping off heads...
he's coming to play church."

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;..." Rev. 20:4

"who can war with the beast? no one can if it is world wide..."

Who could war with an individual who wields the power of all the nations? Indeed, who would be like such an individual? No one.

In response to my quoting the verse about everyone who doesn't worship the beast's image "should be killed" (Rev. 13:15), you respond:

"should is a big threat...

here is a possibility...(if this is the false Christ, then the threat may be from him, that "if you don't think I'm Jesus, then you'll be thrown in the lake of fire"..."

You are missing the point. There is no other "possibility". The point of the verse is that the people who do not worship the image of the beast ARE killed. You are actually trying to argue that the English word "should" somehow means that they aren't killed, and rather it's a threat for them to go the lake or fire or something? You are missing the point of the verse in your zeal to confirm your beliefs about the AC not being allowed to kill anyone, Zeke.

"I have already said that the first beast in Rev13 has a mouth...
that mouth is the second beast in Rev13,
who is the false prophet/antiChrist/son of Perdition/little horn etc....
you are dividing a character into more than one,
and that character needs no division for he is only one individual...
Satan the supernatural fallen angel,"

Yes, you sure did say it, but you sure didn't prove it. That's because you cannot prove it. There is absolutely no verse that draws even a remote connection between the mouth of the first beast and the false prophet, period. Actually, there are three characters. I will end by quoting this verse, which DYNAMITES your entire theory, and which I have quoted earlier in this post:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev. 20:10
Essentially, Zeke, this one verse disproves virtually everything you believe about Bible prophecy.

NJBeliever · #**110** 5th November 2009, 06:35 PM

Great job Achilles. This is why it's great to just use the Scripture. Keep up the great work. God bless.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev. 20:10
Essentially, Zeke, this one verse disproves virtually everything you believe about Bible prophecy."

Exactly.