A posting I made in the Wesleyan area here on CF was copied and pasted into a thread in the Baptist area and renamed "I Don't Sin" and it started an interesting debate, but since I'm not a Baptist I was "not allowed" to respond and when I did my responses were deleted. So I moved it here!
This is the original posting I made. "I was a born again only Christian for 33 years and yet I still loved sin and in those years I sinned thousands and thousands of times. Everything from sexual sin, to drunkeness, lust, greed, theft, extreme anger, cursing pride and other sins I'm ashamed to admit. There are millions of born again only Christians living in defeat. Victory over sin as found in 1 Cor 10:13 is just a dream for them (as it was for me for 33 years.) If you doubt me check out the pornography forums here on this site and read about the addictions to porno and sex these born again only Christians still have as I did for 33 years. If you need scriptural proof that born again Christians still sin frequently read 1 Corinthians and see what carnality born again only Christians are capable of. Romans 7 would be another chapter to show how powerless the born again only Christian is against sin.
Being born again is just the first step toward defeating the sinful nature found within us. There is at least one more step in the Christian's life that must be taken before the Christian will have 100% victory over sin."
To set the record straight from the outset, you can easily see I never made any statement in that posting that I don't sin any longer. There is a teaser that one will have 100% victory over sin however, but I never said I had arrived at that point (but I'm pretty close!) So lets start there.
Most of us are familiar with hyperbole. There are several instances of it in the scriptures, one of which is found in John 21:25, "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." Now that would be a lot of books! My 100% comment was hyperbole, but actually it is not too far off. Would you like to go from sinning 25 times a day to 25 times a year? Read on.
So the question is can a sinner have 100% victory over sin? No. A sinner can only do one thing and that is sin. Sinners cannot "do" righteousness because they have none, so sinners will never have any victory over sin. So that begs the question are born again Christians sinners? Or is the born again Christian a saint? We are called "saint(s)" 61 times in the NT. In Luke 5:32 Jesus said "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (see also Luke 15:7.) The righteous are not sinners according to these passages. Then Jesus in the very next passage (5:33) contrasts the difference between the righteous and sinners when He said "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same."
Prior to Pentecost the disciples were a bunch are bumbling powerless men who sinned on at least two occasions. See Luke 9:46; the sin of pride, Mark 9:29; the sin of prayerlessness, but after Pentecost the only sin that is recorded of any disciple is where Peter refused to eat with Gentiles (Gal 2:12.) I assume if there were other sins that they had committed they would be mentioned but they are not so by the silence of the scriptures we can assume they didn't sin any longer. As we all know the bible doesn't sugar coat anyone's sin especially God's own children. So what was the difference between the disciples of the gospels and the disciples from Acts chapter 2 and on? The infilling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives us power over sin. In fact according to one passage we cannot sin! 1 John 3:9, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1 John 5:18, "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him." We have, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, absolute power over the evil one. Jesus prayed in John 17:15 "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." 1 John 5:14-15 says "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us-whatever we ask-we know that we have what we asked of him." Does not God want us to be free from the power of sin? Have we asked God to deliver us from the evil one? 2 Thess 3:3, "But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one." We are told twice that we "have overcome the evil one" in 1 John 2:13 and 2:14.
So it appears to be a matter of belief. If you are absolutely convinced in your heart that you are still a sinner, you will sin because that is what sinners do. But if you are absolutely convinced in your heart that you have been imputed with the very righteousness of God Himself, and you know you are a child of God, and the Holy Spirit has absolute reign in your heart, you will live a life that is virtually free of sin. "For as [a man] thinketh in his heart, so is he." Prov 23:7. So what do you think?
LST 1154 I Pray You received My apology Regarding What I feel is a straight forward and easy to understand subject? May the Peace of Christ Be with You brother....and Let not My feelings get into the way of Posting each other in the future...God Bless You ...Dave
LST 1154 I Pray You received My apology Regarding What I feel is a straight forward and easy to understand subject? May the Peace of Christ Be with You brother....and Let not My feelings get into the way of Posting each other in the future...God Bless You ...Dave
Dave,
Yes I did. I sent you a PM and your apology is accepted. Thank you brother.
All is well when brothers in Christ agree to disagree in love.
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
__________________
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Yes, that is true. How does it relate to the original post?
__________________ "For man does not know his time. Like fish that are taken in an evil net, and like birds that are caught in a snare, so the children of man are snared at an evil time, when it suddenly falls upon them."
Ecclesiastes 9:12 (ESV)
Yes, that is true. How does it relate to the original post?
Anyone who thinks they don't sin is full of pride and is spiritually deluded. It doesn't matter if they are practically sinless, the second they start believing it means they've lost it, and almost always they think it is because of their own actions that they have achieved it. We must look at ourselves as being the greatest of sinners. As long as we live, we haven't endured to the end and we're still running the race. It's quite easy to think we've arrived when we are actually not anywhere near the finish line.
__________________
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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almost always they think it is because of their own actions that they have achieved it.
Nothing could be further from the truth. One's own actions will always produce the same thing, failure. God doesn't need our "help" any more than a hammer needs to "help" a carpenter. We are simply tools in the hands of the Master, and as tools we "rest in His hand" while He produces the work He wants to through His beloved child.
So what kind of a tool are you? Are you the kind that thinks by your own works you are "helping" the master carpenter build His kingdom or are you the kind that allows Him to use you as He created you to be.
Nothing could be further from the truth. One's own actions will always produce the same thing, failure. God doesn't need our "help" any more than a hammer needs to "help" a carpenter. We are simply tools in the hands of the Master, and as tools we "rest in His hand" while He produces the work He wants to through His beloved child.
So what kind of a tool are you? Are you the kind that thinks by your own works you are "helping" the master carpenter build His kingdom or are you the kind that allows Him to use you as He created you to be.
LST 1154
You're the one who thinks that by his own mind over matter mantra, he can defeat sin! That's a work- however- it doesn't seem like you're giving God any of the glory- and it sounds quite far from being humble. We commit sins voluntarily, involuntarily, in knowledge and in ignorance. Perhaps you don't commit sins that you know of- but you commit them still.
We are created in Christ Jesus for good works! Faith that isn't dead brings a responsibility and it is only through God's grace that we can do said works. We must hear the word of God and do it and endure to the end.
__________________
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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Mind over matter mantra? How about Christ over the devil. Heb 2:14, "Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil."
Lets cut to the chase. I am a born again Christian, and according to the two or three members of the Orthodox faith that I have met I am a cultist since I don't belong to the "true" church (which is the OC of course.) I assume you would agree with these members of your faith so since I am a cultist NOTHING I say will make an iota of difference to you. So I will not make any more attempts to explain to you how the Holy Spirit has touched me. Read Matt 7:6. You and others have already belittled it, which proves beyond any doubt that you have not been touched likewise (yet.) I know what He has done in my life and I have the evidence. It is rather like attempting to explain to someone who is not married, how deeply a man can love his wife, or attempting to explain the miracle of being born again to someone who has never experienced the miracle of being born again.
LST
I am willing to discuss my experience only with those who consider Protestants to be Christians.
LST
Last edited by LST 1154; 28th September 2009 at 04:54 PM.
Reason: Adding additional info.
Mind over matter mantra? How about Christ over the devil. Heb 2:14, "Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil."
Lets cut to the chase. I am a born again Christian, and according to the two or three members of the Orthodox faith that I have met I am a cultist since I don't belong to the "true" church (which is the OC of course.) I assume you would agree with these members of your faith so since I am a cultist NOTHING I say will make an iota of difference to you. So I will not make any more attempts to explain to you how the Holy Spirit has touched me. Read Matt 7:6. You and others have already belittled it, which proves beyond any doubt that you have not been touched likewise (yet.) I know what He has done in my life and I have the evidence. It is rather like attempting to explain to someone who is not married, how deeply a man can love his wife, or attempting to explain the miracle of being born again to someone who has never experienced the miracle of being born again.
LST
I am willing to discuss my experience only with those who consider Protestants to be Christians.
LST
You're putting words in my mouth and you're not making sense, sorry! If you don't like people who disagree with your doctrines to respond to your threads, then you'd better stop posting on the internet.
I have an inkling that you feel that you must lash out because you have no valid response and you realize it.
__________________
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"It's later than you think. Hasten therefore, to do the work of God." ~ Fr. Seraphim Rose
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Last edited by seashale76; 28th September 2009 at 06:58 PM.
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