Jerusalem pre flood remains

dad · #**171** 1st November 2009, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Assyrian

The point is Moses statement all our days pass away under your wrath fits the Genesis curse, as does their span is but toil and trouble.

I disagree. Was Enoch so cursed, that he walked with God? Or Noah, who found favor?
Ge 9:1 -And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Ge 12:3 -And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Ge 17:20 - And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Ge 18:18 -Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Ge 22:18 -And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Ge 26:4 -And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Some curse.

This ties in beautifully with Psalm 90's study of Genesis and the creation and God turning man back to dust. On the other hand, you tried to tie in the wrath with the 40 years in the wilderness, but you seem to have abandoned that for a context while they were still slaves Egypt because the 70 or 80 does not fit the wide range of lifespans in the wilderness. But while the 40 years was the wrath of God too, the Israelite's slavery wasn't.

I do now consider that the life spans mentioned had to apply to the slaves. They sure don't apply to anyone else.

We need to distinguish between interpretations we like and one that are a good exegesis of the text. Doesn't mean the reading we like isn't a true deeper meaning hinted at in the text, but it is not a good basis for deciding the context of passage. Stick to the plain meaning of the text for that. And even if you read the resurrection onto the psalm's poetic parallelism, you still have the context of the Psalm talking about God turning mankind back to dust.

And they turned to dust in the desert as well. And we coulld whimsically think of how all men end up as dust there too. But we cannot apply a curse universally!

Apart from verses 13 & 16 where Moses includes himself and his readers as the Lords' servants, there is no mention in the psalm of slaves, Egypt or Pharaoh. However Adam was mentioned in the psalm and a life of toil was what Adam expected too. Gen 3:17

cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

But Adam still lived well over 9 centuries, and had a big family. Compared to before the fall, yes, things sure were cursed. But within this cursed earth, there were blessing all over the place.

When I read the rest of Psa 90, right after the slave life time verse, it sure looks like ip specifically applies to slaves before they were freed.

11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath. 12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. 13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants. 14 O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days. 15 Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil. 16 Let thy work (deliverance) appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children. 17 And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.

Except you can't rule out the lifespans ascribed to these slaves. They were much longer than the 70 or 80 describe in the psalm.

No, a few cushy jobs were had. Maybe the real brains, or something. Naturally they woulld have a normal lifespan. That is not the group, any more than some 16 year old that was beat to death was the average age. I'll take Moses word. It was 70.

You have been desperately trying to shove your feet in the shoe like one of Cinderella's sisters, but nothing fits. The answer is in the Psalm itself which shows us how to read God's description of time figuratively.

Not really, you introduced me to a mystery that needed a little time to study the details of.

And he wrote how many books in that time? If Moses wrote this during his time as a shepherd in Midian, what makes you think he was describing slavery in Egypt? There is nothing evident about when Moses did or did not write the Psalm. What is evident is the context.

I think a chief prince of Egypt would know about slave life. Especially one that knew he was a Hebrew himself. Remember, he spent 40 long years there.

That job would only have been open until Moses was weaned and Moses was 80 at the time of the Exodus. Besides that was Moses' mother, not Miriam.

Having good connections, and references seems to help in any age.

I don't think the Israelites had an army when they were slaves in Egypt, so the Levites not being numbered for the military census in Sinai is even less relevant.

Then don't bring it up.

Umm the bible does not say anything about the Israelites building pyramids... Exodus 1:11

Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with heavy burdens. They built for Pharaoh store cities, Pithom and Raamses. As far as we know the city of Raamases or Avaris, is in Goshen. As for being able to speak well, you don't need a life of leisurely study for that.

Apparently he was real good at it. But whatever the Jews were building, took work. I already gave the average slave life for a place in the US. We know it was lower.

Come on, you are the one with the Alice in Wonderland manna, one type makes your life shorter and the other makes you live longer.

What, next thing you'll be telling us it appeared magically too? What, angels ate it as well? What, it sat around in a little ark for centuries fresh as day 1? Anyhow, I think the case of the mysterious life spans was solved. It was speaking of the slave life.

If all the slaves died within 40 years, they never lived to the normal ripe old age, unless most were old when they left.

Assyrian · #**172** 6th November 2009, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by dad

Not for slaves in slavery. If that was when Moses penned the psalm, that woulld be the average in mind. Even if it was right after they left, he would not have new averages to work with. Either way, it makes perfect sense that hard labor slaves had a shorter lifespan.

I am sure slaves would have had shorter lifespans, but the bible still gives them lifespans between 110 and 137 years, really it is just more evidence the bible isn't speaking literally about the longevity, though most literalists would not take such a rationalist approach discounting what the bible says about the lifespans of the slaves because it does not make sense.

But you have yet to show that Moses would have been talking about the lifespan of a slave. Don't forget he uses the first person, the years of our life. Whose lifespan was he familiar with anyway? Apart from when he was a baby, he spend the first forty years of his life in the Egyptian court and the next 40 living with shepherds in Midian. You haven't produced any evidence Moses was talking about reduced Israelite slave lifespans, or specifically the Israelite slaves at all. Nor have you produced any evidence the Israelite slaves had a lifespan of 70 or 80 tears as oppose to the 30 years of a Negro slave in America, or the 110 to 137 years ascribed to them in the bible.

I think what we have gratitated to be talking about is an average life of 70 years as a slave. In other words, the number Moses was using. It sure did noot fir into the other people of the time.

Other people? It does not fit anybody, not Moses who claimed the 70 or 80 as his own lifespan too, not the slaves who lived from 110 to 137 years or the rest of the world's population if the take the ages in the bible literally. It is clear Moses did not take the ages in the bible any more literally than he took God's days, as he tells us in this very psalm.

You keep using this strange argument. Just because they were not numbered in the military census does not mean their ages don't count. You just seem to be looking for an excuse, any excuse to ignore them. In fact Moses counted all of the Levite males above one month old. Num 3:15 "List the sons of Levi, by fathers' houses and by clans; every male from a month old and upward you shall list." 16 So Moses listed them according to the word of the LORD, as he was commanded.

Listed, but not counted. So it depends on what count or list we want to assume relates. But, since I am looking at the simple take that 70 was the average slave life time, it doesn't matter any more.

So no attempt to justify using the census as an excuse. Neither listing nor counting has anything to do with the life expectancies given in the psalm, you are simply looking for wildly irrelevant excuses to ignore the ages given for Israelites at this time.

Anyway, even this excuse falls part when you look at the passage. Num 3:15 "List the sons of Levi, by fathers' houses and by clans; every male from a month old and upward you shall list." 16 So Moses listed them according to the word of the LORD, as he was commanded. 17 And these were the sons of Levi by their names ... 22 Their listing according to the number of all the males from a month old and upward was 7,500.

As I said, it depends on when it was written. There is no reason at all to assume that it was NOT written before the exodus, or right after. That means we have a bunch of slaves, who, for hundreds of years had known shorter life spans. Therefore, the psalm makes perfect sense in context.

'No reason all to to assume it as not' In other words you have no evidence to support it and in fact were arguing for a post Kadesh date only very recently. The psalm does not say it was written before the Exodus, or that it was written about slaves, whose lifespans in the bible run from 110 to 137 years old. Amram, Aaron, Miriam the elders and all the old folk who walked out of Egypt show the life span of a slave was not '70 or by reason of strength 80'.

I didn't mention any dates. But the 5th and 6th dynasties are long before any of the Pharaohs I have heard of being ascribed as Exodus Pharaohs, yet their 110 year lifespans are quite at odds with the Biblical lifespans before the Exodus. I was quoting Sumerian lifespans from around their flood account.

Here agian, we hit the unknown. Do you know what Pharaoh it was? No. I would suggest that one reliable dating method would be biblical lifespans! If we know when they lived a thousand years, and when they lived about 240 yeas, and when it got down to 120 years..etc! But that is another thread. As it is you don't know, fine..

So you can't support your argument or come up with a coherent dating system to fit 5th and 6th dynasties that reconciles their 110 year lifespan with biblical longevity.

But If you have actual dates for the Sumerian flood as opposed to Noah's, or for the reigns of the Sumerian kings and Egyptian Pharaohs and can reconcile Sumerian Hebrew and Egyptian lifespans, please let us know. It would be much better than simply handwaving it all away with 'presumed dating'.

The Sumers were some of the first off the block after the flood. Therfore we can have some idea, since the flood was something like 4500+ years ago. The flood they referred to likely was the flood, and we already have the date.

Yet you have no explanation why the Biblical ages had declined to 133 year twelve generations after the flood, while after twelve generations after the flood in Sumer the king managed to live 1500 years, and twenty generations after the flood a king lived to 1200. Nor have you any explanation or why the biblical ages decline rapidly while the Sumerian ages simply fluctuated up and down.

It does make a lot of sense if the early Hebrew genealogies followed the Mesopotamian system and moved to the Egyptian system of honouring their forefathers when they were in Egypt.

Par for the course if we have a normall life expectancy, and a slave in hard service average age! Those that lived more were not in slavery I notice. Therefore that is the missing link, the key.

Except you haven't provided any evidence Amram, Aaron, Miriam, the elders, the old folk, Joshua and Caleb weren't slaves. What are you saying, that it is just sheer coincidence that all of the Israelites whose age we have any indication of weren't slaves?

It talks about a lot of things, like before the mountains were! By the time it hits the sad little reference to slave life spans, it is talking about 'his' people. Clearly. "our".

I don't think Moses referred to the mountains as 'us', or God who was before the mountains, but he does refer to all generations as 'our'.

That is why I narrowed it down to the slave life. 70 or 80. It fits, and nothing else does. Case solved.

Except it does not fit the ages we are given for the slave. You abandoned the post Kadesh context because the life expectancies fluctuated too wildly, but at least their days passing away under God's wrath fit. Now you have move it to a time when the life expectancy according to the bible was 120 years, and the ones who died as slaves, their days passed away under the wrath of Pharaoh not God.

The whole people were in slavery, so for the 'our' the life span was only 70 years.

Moses wasn't a slave and he was the one who said 'our'.

Not at all, only this people was in hard bondage. Moses was not.

So why claim he only had a slave's lifespan of 70 or 80 when he had lived half his life in luxury and the rest just herding sheep? Your interpretation simply does not fit the context of the psalm, or the ages ascribed to the slaves. Of course Moses never said he was talking about slaves.

Not at all, I can win the day, and still take a month to do it. latching onto the possible applications of a word does not take away from how they were used.

It is amazing how creationists dismiss Moses' non literal interpretation of God's days as 'latching on'. Yet this is in the very same psalm where he ascribes to himself and everyone else a natural lifespan of 70 or 80. Who better to explain what Genesis means than Moses? Yet rather than follow Moses' lead, you have to insist Moses wasn't really talking about himself when he said 'our', that the psalm was about slaves when there is no indication of this, and claim all the Israelites whose ages we are given weren't actually slaves.

Is it ''some great hidden truth" that God speaks to us in metaphor parable and allegory? That should be obvious to anyone who reads the bible. What Moses shows us in Psalm 90 is that the ages of the patriarchs are just another of the many metaphors in the bible.

Nope, it is obvious he lived long himself, as did others, and that the note worthy thing was the slave life was shorter and hard.

And still you keep on ignoring what is said and and throw in some other argument instead.

There were exceptions to the age thing, as I pointed out, Aaron (and presumably his dad, Amram) lived on the border region. He learned to be more or less a lawyer of the day. naturally such people in more cushy situations would live longer than Joe sixpack slave at the quarry. But, averaging them all together as a people comes up with 70 as an average time of death, or 80 for many. Since the average of men on the planet was still over 100 at the time, it was nothing if a few slaves had it well enough off to live normally. That did not endow the Herbrew slave people as a whole with long lives.

Aaron lived in Goshen where the slave cities were and there is nothing in the bible that suggests Aaron was a lawyer, or Amram or Miriam or Joshua and Caleb or the elder or the old folk. You are making up your 70 year average out of thin air. Funny how you have to ignore the lifespans in the bible to keep your interpretation of lifespans in the bible literal.

No. Don't think so. He was talking about his people in that day. Not no people before mountains existed. By the time it mentions our lives, we are right their with his people.

First time Moses mentions 'our' he is talking about all generations. It really show how bad your arguments are that you have to keep bringing up the mountains and not counting the Levites.

Assyrian · #**173** 6th November 2009, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by dad

I disagree. Was Enoch so cursed, that he walked with God? Or Noah, who found favor?
Ge 9:1 -And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Ge 12:3 -And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Ge 17:20 - And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Ge 18:18 -Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Ge 22:18 -And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Ge 26:4 -And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Some curse.

It is strange watching a creationist try to dismiss the curse in Genesis 3. Do you think God wasn't being literal?

This ties in beautifully with Psalm 90's study of Genesis and the creation and God turning man back to dust. On the other hand, you tried to tie in the wrath with the 40 years in the wilderness, but you seem to have abandoned that for a context while they were still slaves Egypt because the 70 or 80 does not fit the wide range of lifespans in the wilderness. But while the 40 years was the wrath of God too, the Israelite's slavery wasn't.

I do now consider that the life spans mentioned had to apply to the slaves. They sure don't apply to anyone else.

And no attempt to deal with the point.

And they turned to dust in the desert as well. And we coulld whimsically think of how all men end up as dust there too. But we cannot apply a curse universally!

People don't usually die? Incidentally, while the turning to dust is more literally applicable in the desert, being swept away in a flood isn't.

Psalm 90:3 You return man to dust and say, "Return, O children of man!"
4 For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.
5 You sweep them away as with a flood; they are like a dream, like grass that is renewed in the morning:
6 in the morning it flourishes and is renewed; in the evening it fades and withers.

Apart from verses 13 & 16 where Moses includes himself and his readers as the Lords' servants, there is no mention in the psalm of slaves, Egypt or Pharaoh. However Adam was mentioned in the psalm and a life of toil was what Adam expected too. Gen 3:17 cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

But Adam still lived well over 9 centuries, and had a big family. Compared to before the fall, yes, things sure were cursed. But within this cursed earth, there were blessing all over the place.

Of course. That is why the first section of you post is so irrelevant.

However, as usual you completely failed to deal with my point.

When I read the rest of Psa 90, right after the slave life time verse, it sure looks like ip specifically applies to slaves before they were freed.

11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath. 12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. 13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants. 14 O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days. 15 Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil. 16 Let thy work (deliverance) appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children. 17 And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.

It applies to most people throughout history.

No, a few cushy jobs were had. Maybe the real brains, or something. Naturally they woulld have a normal lifespan. That is not the group, any more than some 16 year old that was beat to death was the average age. I'll take Moses word. It was 70.

Any evidence Amram, Aaron, Miriam, the old folk, Joshua and Caleb had cushy jobs? The only cushy job I know of was foreman, are you saying these bible heroes were collaborators?

Not really, you introduced me to a mystery that needed a little time to study the details of.

Have you got any answers that fit the text?

I think a chief prince of Egypt would know about slave life. Especially one that knew he was a Hebrew himself. Remember, he spent 40 long years there.

So now you are saying he wrote this psalm during his life of luxury as an Egyptian prince? Even less reason for saying 'the years of our life', or complaining about how he had been afflicted.

That job would only have been open until Moses was weaned and Moses was 80 at the time of the Exodus. Besides that was Moses' mother, not Miriam.

Having good connections, and references seems to help in any age.

So Miriam got a job as a wet nurse too? You keep making up more and more all the time.

I don't think the Israelites had an army when they were slaves in Egypt, so the Levites not being numbered for the military census in Sinai is even less relevant.

Then don't bring it up.

You are the one making the claim.

It is quite the bizarre world you live in, you use irrelevancies to exclude the ages of Israelites in Moses time, and you say I shouldn’t point out they are irrelevant because they are irrelevant?

Umm the bible does not say anything about the Israelites building pyramids... Exodus 1:11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with heavy burdens. They built for Pharaoh store cities, Pithom and Raamses. As far as we know the city of Raamases or Avaris, is in Goshen. As for being able to speak well, you don't need a life of leisurely study for that.

Apparently he was real good at it.

Again complete failure to deal with the point.

But whatever the Jews were building, took work.

You were trying to claim Aaron wasn't a slave because he lived nowhere near the pyramids. Are you abandoning that argument?

I already gave the average slave life for a place in the US. We know it was lower.

And yet slavery had no effect on the ages ascribed to the Israelites during their time as slaves. In fact Amram lived longer than his father Kohath, as long as his grandfather Levi, 137 years. All the more evidence the longevity is figurative rather than a literal description of lives of slaves or patriarchs.

What, next thing you'll be telling us it appeared magically too? What, angels ate it as well? What, it sat around in a little ark for centuries fresh as day 1? Anyhow, I think the case of the mysterious life spans was solved. It was speaking of the slave life.

Sorry, however miraculous the provision of manna, it can't be made to shorten Israelites' lifespans and then make them longer, simply on your whim.

If all the slaves died within 40 years, they never lived to the normal ripe old age, unless most were old when they left.

Exodus 10:9 Moses said, "We will go with our young and our old. We will go with our sons and daughters and with our flocks and herds, for we must hold a feast to the LORD." Sounds like a normal spread of ages to me.

dad · #**174** 7th November 2009, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Assyrian

I am sure slaves would have had shorter lifespans, but the bible still gives them lifespans between 110 and 137 years, really it is just more evidence the bible isn't speaking literally about the longevity, though most literalists would not take such a rationalist approach discounting what the bible says about the lifespans of the slaves because it does not make sense.

No, the bible does not give them anything of the sort. Some slaves lived out to the normal span. It does not average the Hebrew slave lifespan, except in Ps 90!

But you have yet to show that Moses would have been talking about the lifespan of a slave.

He was talking about slaves. His people were slaves, remember? He helped free them..etc..Nothing else he could be talking about. That's all he had to work with.

Don't forget he uses the first person, the years of our life.

I didn't forget, and dealt with it already. He identified himself with that people. Heck, so did God! He said "Let MY people go"!!! That didn't make Him a slave!

Of course I must admit, sometimes Moses called them something like 'this' people!

Ex 17:4 -And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.

Whose lifespan was he familiar with anyway? Apart from when he was a baby, he spend the first forty years of his life in the Egyptian court and the next 40 living with shepherds in Midian. You haven't produced any evidence Moses was talking about reduced Israelite slave lifespans, or specifically the Israelite slaves at all.

If they were his people, who else could be the "our"?

Nor have you produced any evidence the Israelite slaves had a lifespan of 70 or 80 tears as oppose to the 30 years of a Negro slave in America, or the 110 to 137 years ascribed to them in the bible.

Look, we know the life spans from the bible. We also know them from records of Egypt. Even if we want to forget the dating of dynasties for now, at some time they did live the same length of time.

Therefore the 70 or 80 can not refer to the general population. What's left? The logical deduction to make is that the spans refer to the people of Moses.

'No reason all to to assume it as not' In other words you have no evidence to support it and in fact were arguing for a post Kadesh date only very recently. The psalm does not say it was written before the Exodus, or that it was written about slaves, whose lifespans in the bible run from 110 to 137 years old. Amram, Aaron, Miriam the elders and all the old folk who walked out of Egypt show the life span of a slave was not '70 or by reason of strength 80'.

No, they show that some pampered slaves or freed slaves, or whatever were back to normal. It has to fit. It cannot fit unless it is an unnatural life span. We know slaves have shorter averages. Elementary, really.

So you can't support your argument or come up with a coherent dating system to fit 5th and 6th dynasties that reconciles their 110 year lifespan with biblical longevity.

Yes, all dating depends on same state past belief. Take that away, and it all fits like a glove. In fact there is no choice, it cannot remain unless a same state past is proven. Forget man's dates.

Yet you have no explanation why

the Biblical ages had declined to 133 year twelve generations after the flood, while after twelve generations after the flood in Sumer the king managed to live 1500 years, and twenty generations after the flood a king lived to 1200.

Yes, I do. The ages declined, because the split happened, and new realities kicked in over time. Sumer records are only good for broad generalities, being pagan records. We just need to look at who says someone lived 1500 years..?

Nor have you any explanation or why the biblical ages decline rapidly while the Sumerian ages simply fluctuated up and down.

Yes, the Sumer records are embellished, and inaccurate as far as clean facts go. They are useful in the broad sense of long lifespans, and a flood. Not for trusted detail.

Except you haven't provided any evidence Amram, Aaron, Miriam, the elders, the old folk, Joshua and Caleb weren't slaves. What are you saying, that it is just sheer coincidence that all of the Israelites whose age we have any indication of weren't slaves?

Doesn't matter. If they were freed, they were no longer slaves.

I don't think Moses referred to the mountains as 'us', or God who was before the mountains, but he does refer to all generations as 'our'.

Well, right after that Mo talks of "them"!!!!! Then as it gets near the slave age verse, it launches into "we"!!!!!!! So the division is clear between "our, we" and "they them"!

5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. 6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled. 8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance. 9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told. 10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Moses wasn't a slave and he was the one who said 'our'.

Yes, Moses thought of them, most of the time, as his people.

So why claim he only had a slave's lifespan of 70 or 80 when he had lived half his life in luxury and the rest just herding sheep? Your interpretation simply does not fit the context of the psalm, or the ages ascribed to the slaves. Of course Moses never said he was talking about slaves.

I don't. He was talking about the people. He didn't knmow when he would die yet. Especially if this was written just before God called him to deliver them??! (80) No wonder that '80' scared him.

Aaron lived in Goshen where the slave cities were and there is nothing in the bible that suggests Aaron was a lawyer, or Amram or Miriam or Joshua and Caleb or the elder or the old folk. You are making up your 70 year average out of thin air. Funny how you have to ignore the lifespans in the bible to keep your interpretation of lifespans in the bible literal.

There were no lawyers then. But he had learned ho to be a real good speaker, and negotiator. Doesn't sound to me like something one leans being lashed, and worked 16 hot hours of the day!

Assyrian · #**175** 7th November 2009, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by dad

No, the bible does not give them anything of the sort. Some slaves lived out to the normal span. It does not average the Hebrew slave lifespan, except in Ps 90!

Psalm 90 says nothing about averages, Hebrew slaves, or anything about averaging the Hebrew slave lifespan. The only indication in the psalm of who he is talking about is that it is the people of God throughout all generations and that it includes Moses himself.

He was talking about slaves. His people were slaves, remember? He helped free them..etc..Nothing else he could be talking about. That's all he had to work with.

Most of the time he was with them they weren't slaves. Nor did he limit himself to people alive at the time. Remember, our dwelling place in all generations.

I didn't forget, and dealt with it already.

You made the claim before, sidestepped my reply by simply repeating your claim rather than dealing with my response, and when I pointed this out, you completely ignored it, snipping out my reply and going on to the next comment.

He identified himself with that people. Heck, so did God! He said "Let MY people go"!!! That didn't make Him a slave!

Of course I must admit, sometimes Moses called them something like 'this' people!

Ex 17:4 -And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.

God saying "Let MY people go" is not identifying himself as one of them, or calling himself a slave. He is simply calling the slaves his people. Nor did God ever say he only lives 70 or 80 years. Moses did.

If they were his people, who else could be the "our"?

All generations who have God as their refuge. His father who was a slave and lived to 137. The godly Midianites whose family he married into. Humanity in general, Psalm 90:3 You return man to dust and say, "Return, O children of Adam!"

Nor have you produced any evidence the Israelite slaves had a lifespan of 70 or 80 tears as oppose to the 30 years of a Negro slave in America, or the 110 to 137 years ascribed to them in the bible.

Look, we know the life spans from the bible. We also know them from records of Egypt. Even if we want to forget the dating of dynasties for now, at some time they did live the same length of time.

Yes, but not when you want them to. There are a lot of things to do to reconcile Egyptian and biblical timelines, you need to be able to identify Joseph's pharaoh, the change in regime, pharaoh's who built cities with slave labour, the Exodus and subsequent Egyptian military interventions into Israel and Judah. It is not enough to say the 110 year life span must have been when the bible had 110 year lifespans, you have to show the rest fits too. Your biggest problem is that according to your weblink, the 110 year lifespan was found in the 5th and 6th dynasties and the 19th and 20th. Now people have argued for Ramasses the Great as the pharoah of the Exodus and he is 19th dynasty, but that leaves the 5th and 6th dynasties, long before the Exodus with 110 year lifespans while the patriarchs were enjoying many centuries like the Sumerians.

Interesting how you did not answer my point though.

Therefore the 70 or 80 can not refer to the general population. What's left? The logical deduction to make is that the spans refer to the people of Moses.

The 70 or 80 does not fit the Israelite slaves either, or Moses who included himself in the lifespan. It does not fit anybody who had lived up until then if we take the lifespans in the bible literally. The logical deduction is that Moses did not take the ages of the patriarchs literally.

No, they show that some pampered slaves or freed slaves, or whatever were back to normal. It has to fit. It cannot fit unless it is an unnatural life span. We know slaves have shorter averages. Elementary, really.

Any evidence that Amram and Aaron and Miriam and the elders and all the old folk were pampered slaves? And evidence you could spend 40 years in a slavery harsh enough to reduce you lifespan by 40 or 50 years, and because you are freed at 40 go on to live a full lifespan? How come the only people who ages we know of from the bible in this period were pampered slaves?

Of course the 70 or 80 does fit. it is our normal human lifespan. It is how long Moses expected to live himself, it is how long he expected everyone to live as long as they did not die prematurely accident or disease. It means he did not take the lifespans in the bible any more literally than he took the days of creation.

So you can't support your argument or come up with a coherent dating system to fit 5th and 6th dynasties that reconciles their 110 year lifespan with biblical longevity.

Yes, all dating depends on same state past belief. Take that away, and it all fits like a glove. In fact there is no choice, it cannot remain unless a same state past is proven. Forget man's dates.

Yeah! When all else fails wave a 'same state past belief' at it. Much better than trying to come up with an actual answer.

Yet you have no explanation why the Biblical ages had declined to 133 year twelve generations after the flood, while after twelve generations after the flood in Sumer the king managed to live 1500 years, and twenty generations after the flood a king lived to 1200.

Yes, I do. The ages declined, because the split happened, and new realities kicked in over time. Sumer records are only good for broad generalities, being pagan records. We just need to look at who says someone lived 1500 years..?

Yeah if you squint your eyes tight enough anything can be kept vague enough to fit. Why didn't the Sumerian lifespans decline like the patriarchs? Why did the multiple centuries and even thousand year lifespans continue many generations after the Israelite lifespan had declined to normal?

Yes, the Sumer records are embellished, and inaccurate as far as clean facts go. They are useful in the broad sense of long lifespans, and a flood. Not for trusted detail.

Are they embellished, or evidence of long lifespans? Why are Sumerian lifespans immediately after the flood evidence of long lifespans, but equally long Sumerian lifespans 20 generations after the flood are not to be trusted?

What the Sumerian records tell us is that embellishing lifespans was simply the common practice at the time, and what Psalm 90 tells us is that it wasn't to be taken literally.

Except you haven't provided any evidence Amram, Aaron, Miriam, the elders, the old folk, Joshua and Caleb weren't slaves. What are you saying, that it is just sheer coincidence that all of the Israelites whose age we have any indication of weren't slaves?

Doesn't matter. If they were freed, they were no longer slaves.

Wonderful they way you try to dismiss things that don't suit. So it is not coincidence they all live much longer than you claim, they simply don't count. But Amram wasn't freed. Aaron and Miriam were already in their 80s even if they were strong their worn out bodies should have been dying, not ready to go on for another 40 years. The elders and old folk should already have been dead, and Joshua and Caleb should have had their lifespans reduced by their years of hard labour.

I don't think Moses referred to the mountains as 'us', or God who was before the mountains, but he does refer to all generations as 'our'.

Well, right after that Mo talks of "them"!!!!! Then as it gets near the slave age verse, it launches into "we"!!!!!!! So the division is clear between "our, we" and "they them"!

5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. 6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled. 8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance. 9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told. 10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Psalm 90:1 A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, you have been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psalm 90:10 The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty; yet their span is but toil and trouble; they are soon gone, and we fly away.
Same word 'our' for all generations and the 70 or 80 year lifespan.

Moses does use 'them' when he is referring to imagery from Genesis, the sons of Adam being retured to dust, being swept away in the flood, but he links his 'them' to his 'our'. Being turned to dust refers to all of us, all our lives are swept away, all our lives are like a dream that passes away.

Psalm 90:5 You sweep them away as with a flood; they are like a dream, like grass that is renewed in the morning:
6 in the morning it flourishes and is renewed; in the evening it fades and withers.
7 For we are brought to an end by your anger; by your wrath we are dismayed.

Anyway I see you did not try to defend your mountains argument. What are the chances you will drag it up again later even though you could not support it now?

Moses wasn't a slave and he was the one who said 'our'.

Yes, Moses thought of them, most of the time, as his people.

Being his people and sharing their our lifespan are two very different things. Moses still said the days of our life.

So why claim he only had a slave's lifespan of 70 or 80 when he had lived half his life in luxury and the rest just herding sheep? Your interpretation simply does not fit the context of the psalm, or the ages ascribed to the slaves. Of course Moses never said he was talking about slaves.

I don't. He was talking about the people. He didn't knmow when he would die yet. Especially if this was written just before God called him to deliver them??! (80) No wonder that '80' scared him.

How long did his dad live? How long did everybody live at that time? If the lives of the patriarchs are literal, his father lived to 137, his grandfather lived to 133, his great grandfather lived to 137 and his great great grandfather Abraham lived to 175. Why should he think he had a lifespan of 70 or 80? Unless that really was the normal lifespan.

Aaron lived in Goshen where the slave cities were and there is nothing in the bible that suggests Aaron was a lawyer, or Amram or Miriam or Joshua and Caleb or the elder or the old folk. You are making up your 70 year average out of thin air. Funny how you have to ignore the lifespans in the bible to keep your interpretation of lifespans in the bible literal.

There were no lawyers then. But he had learned ho to be a real good speaker, and negotiator. Doesn't sound to me like something one leans being lashed, and worked 16 hot hours of the day!

You are assuming Aaron was only a good talker because of his education. Moses was the one with the education and it didn't make him eloquent. Being a slave does teach you eloquence, but it won't stop someone with the gift of the gab talking.

Incidentally, Moses seems pretty eloquent himself in psalm 90, hardly the man slow of speech and tongue who wandered out of the desert, much more like Moses at the end of his life, as we see in his poetry in Deuteronomy. The intercession and knowledge of the Lord fits Moses leading the Israelites in the wilderness much better than before the Exodus, as does his knowledge of Yahweh's name, which God revealed to him in the burning bush. He was pretty busy when he went to see pharaoh, as well as not being very eloquent. So the Israelites weren't slaves anymore when he wrote the psalm and according to you the slavery didn't effect their lifespans once they were freed

Of course then we are into Kadesh and the generation condemned to die in the forty years of wilderness when their lifespan depended on their age leaving Egypt not how strong they were. They certainly don't fit. However if this is the mature man of God who has learned to know his God and has learned to intercede for his people, who had learned eloquence and how to write poetry by the end of his life, then most of the people he was leading were the new generation whose lives would neither have been affected by slavery or Kadesh. Combine that with the complete lack of any reference to slavery and we see that Moses was simply talking about normal human lifespans.

dad · #**176** 9th November 2009, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Assyrian

Psalm 90 says nothing about averages, Hebrew slaves, or anything about averaging the Hebrew slave lifespan.

We know who the group talked about was. We know that 70 years was not meant to be some law, that all people died at 70 or 80. We know the people were slaves, and very likely at the time this was written, or, possibly just after being freed. Therefore, the whole perspective is the slave life.

The only indication in the psalm of who he is talking about is that it is the people of God throughout all generations and that it includes Moses himself.

No, I pointed out the demarcation line, where it was talking of them, (all generations)-- and then suddenly goes into we, and our, as it nears the slave average verse.

Most of the time he was with them they weren't slaves. Nor did he limit himself to people alive at the time. Remember, our dwelling place in all generations.

No really true, in the context of the psalm. If it was written, for example before he delivered the people, then nothing after matters! I don't read anywhere that it was written after 40 years in the wilderness! So, it is commonly assumed it was soon after the departure, but I lean to before they were delivered, where it would seem to make the most sense!

You made the claim before, sidestepped my reply by simply repeating your claim rather than dealing with my response, and when I pointed this out, you completely ignored it, snipping out my reply and going on to the next comment.

Not sure what your point that got ignored was, however, I suspect it may have been something from before I started to crystallize an opinion.

God saying "Let MY people go" is not identifying himself as one of them, or calling himself a slave. He is simply calling the slaves his people. Nor did God ever say he only lives 70 or 80 years. Moses did.

I know. But the point is that Moses was not really one of them either, though he identified as such. He was no slave, but a prince in Egypt.

All generations who have God as their refuge. His father who was a slave and lived to 137. The godly Midianites whose family he married into. Humanity in general, Psalm 90:3 You return man to dust and say, "Return, O children of Adam!"

I pointed out the us, we, our, as opposed to the them already.
_____

dad · #**177** 9th November 2009, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Assyrian

Yes, but not when you want them to. There are a lot of things to do to reconcile Egyptian and biblical timelines, you need to be able to identify Joseph's pharaoh, the change in regime, pharaoh's who built cities with slave labour, the Exodus and subsequent Egyptian military interventions into Israel and Judah.

Are you suggesting you can? First of all, who even says his name wasn't stricken from the record for the humiliation and suffering he presided over? Do we even see Joseph's name there? So let it be written, so let it be done. Ask Yul.

It is not enough to say the 110 year life span must have been when the bible had 110 year lifespans, you have to show the rest fits too.

That alone zips them together in a lockstep that is enough to stand alone, I would think. Unlless actual evidence really forbad it! It doesn't, does it?

Your biggest problem is that according to your weblink, the 110 year lifespan was found in the 5th and 6th dynasties and the 19th and 20th. Now people have argued for Ramasses the Great as the pharoah of the Exodus and he is 19th dynasty, but that leaves the 5th and 6th dynasties, long before the Exodus with 110 year lifespans while the patriarchs were enjoying many centuries like the Sumerians.

No, can you eatablish that Adam was anywhere around Sumer?? Or even Methuselah, that made it pretty well to the flood? What exactly are you talking about? The lifespans took a nosedive after the split! Plummeted don to the 120 or so level in fairly short order. That happens to be close to the time Moses would fit in. All that needs a reviwe is the ages assigned to Egyptian antiquity! They are based on carbon dating, are they not? Surely you would not dare to rasie the king list!

The 70 or 80 does not fit the Israelite slaves either, or Moses who included himself in the lifespan.

I disagree. He included himself with the slaves, whose lives were greatly affected by slavery would be the more proper context.

It does not fit anybody who had lived up until then if we take the lifespans in the bible literally. The logical deduction is that Moses did not take the ages of the patriarchs literally.

I would not expect it to fit anyone but the working slaves. The evidence mounts.

Any evidence that Amram and Aaron and Miriam and the elders and all the old folk were pampered slaves?

Easy, we already know Aaron was out near the border, and had time for some apparently serious schoolin. Besides, if they were to die in the normal slave life span, that would be evidence they were hard working slaves! They didn't. It is all on my side.

And evidence you could spend 40 years in a slavery harsh enough to reduce you lifespan by 40 or 50 years, and because you are freed at 40 go on to live a full lifespan? How come the only people who ages we know of from the bible in this period were pampered slaves?

I already gave the average life of US slaves, which was very much shorter. I don't doubt the same thing would be true where real slavery existed in many places.

Of course the 70 or 80 does fit. it is our normal human lifespan.

Balderdash. That is second guessing thousands of years after the fact!
If the life span curve dropped as the bible says, using the present life span is fooliah and impossible. At best we could say that the severe slavery of Egypt, at the time when life spans were about 110, resulted in about a 33% drop in life expectancy! (or whatever the math works out to)

Quite a reasonable deduction, really, that fits with the evidence.

It is how long Moses expected to live himself, it is how long he expected everyone to live as long as they did not die prematurely accident or disease. It means he did not take the lifespans in the bible any more literally than he took the days of creation.

From the spirit of the text, I would have to go with, it was a passing notation and sorrowful thought of how the slaves lived less than normal. How would I know how long he might think he would live, I don't know how long I will! I went to the doctor, he said I only had ten to live. I said, do you mean yeasr, or months, or..? He replied, 9_8_7_6....

Yeah! When all else fails wave a 'same state past belief' at it. Much better than trying to come up with an actual answer.

That is the actual answer.

Yeah if you squint your eyes tight enough anything can be kept vague enough to fit. Why didn't the Sumerian lifespans decline like the patriarchs?

Because it was mostly embellished pagan lard. I only use it for the very general memory and reality that they knew life spans were real long, as well as knew of spirits, and a flood. For accurate records we need God's book.

Why did the multiple centuries and even thousand year lifespans continue many generations after the Israelite lifespan had declined to normal?

They didn't as explained. The Sumers weren't really even around all that long, were they?

Are they embellished, or evidence of long lifespans? Why are Sumerian lifespans immediately after the flood evidence of long lifespans, but equally long Sumerian lifespans 20 generations after the flood are not to be trusted?

Already explained. I would also take how many generations some think there were with a huge grain of salt.

What the Sumerian records tell us is that embellishing lifespans was simply the common practice at the time, and what Psalm 90 tells us is that it wasn't to be taken literally.

What modern so called science records tell us they are all fables? You need to look beyond the pagan shere for that sort of thing. They always think they are the cat's meow.

The elders and old folk should already have been dead, and Joshua and Caleb should have had their lifespans reduced by their years of hard labour.

We don't know that. I would go by the evidence of how long they lived! That speaks louder than you guessing! Also, God had purposes for them, and you know, that superce3des normal life processes, as Sarah found out.

Psalm 90:1 A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, you have been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psalm 90:10 The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty; yet their span is but toil and trouble; they are soon gone, and we fly away.
Same word 'our' for all generations and the 70 or 80 year lifespan.

Not the same context and meaning, once we have the key to unlock what is really going on here!

You see, the 2 groups about to be mentioned, (them, and we, or our) can be written like this... A + B Now, the first set includes both sub sets! So that it looks more like this, where the first 'our' group is Z, which includes A and B!!!! So that Z = A+B! Simple math. Simple logic. Very fitting with the spirit of the rest of the psalm, and the interpretation of life spans fits nip and tuck with the rest of the bible. All is well in the universe. God was true aftar all.

Assyrian · #**178** 12th November 2009, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by dad

We know who the group talked about was.

Yes 'all generations'. On the other hand you haven't come up with the slightest indication he was talking about slaves. Ever notice how Moses finishes the psalm? Psalm 90:17 Let the favor of the Lord our God be upon us, and establish the work of our hands upon us; yes, establish the work of our hands! Do you think Moses was praying God would establish the store cities of Pithom and Raamses that were the work of the hands of Israelite slaves? Moses isn't talking about slaves at all.

We know that 70 years was not meant to be some law, that all people died at 70 or 80. We know the people were slaves, and very likely at the time this was written, or, possibly just after being freed. Therefore, the whole perspective is the slave life.

Of course he wasn't talking about some law, he was describing the general lifespan. We don't know when Moses wrote this, though it fits his poetic eloquence in Deuteronomy at the end of his life rather than the time of the Exodus when he was slow of speech and tongue. Nor is there any indication Moses was speaking of the specific lifespan of slaves rather than the general human condition through all generations. Remember Moses included himself in his and he wasn't a slave and didn't have a slave lifespan. Of course even if you could show Moses was writing while the Israelites were still slaves and was talking about their slave lifespan, the bible still record the slave lifespans between 110 and 137 years, not 70 or 80. Really you just making this up with no regard for the actual text.

No, I pointed out the demarcation line, where it was talking of them, (all generations)-- and then suddenly goes into we, and our, as it nears the slave average verse.

The average slave lifespan is in fact 121 if the ages in the bible are literal. But Moses uses the same word 'our' for all generations and for the 70 or 80 year lifespan. Whether there is a demarcation line or not, Moses is speaking about the same people and includes himself in both.

No really true, in the context of the psalm. If it was written, for example before he delivered the people, then nothing after matters! I don't read anywhere that it was written after 40 years in the wilderness! So, it is commonly assumed it was soon after the departure, but I lean to before they were delivered, where it would seem to make the most sense!

If it was before he delivered the people, and if he was a lot more eloquent at that time than he claimed, and if he was talking about the reduced life expectancy of slaves rather than the normal life expectancy of all generations as he said, even though there is no reference to slavery, and if he was only being metaphorical when he included himself in the life expectancy, and if you assume the slaves' life expectancy actually was 70 or 80 years, and if you ignore the slave's life spans given in the bible, then what you end up is an interpretation based on your own wishful thinking rather than scripture. I don't see how this helps you.

Not sure what your point that got ignored was, however, I suspect it may have been something from before I started to crystallize an opinion.

There were two points. While there are plenty of examples of a person identifying themself with people's sin, we don't have any example of identify with people's age or lifespan. Moses had a lifespan of 120 his father lived to 137, but he said he shared 'our' life span of 70 or 80. Secondly, even if it were true, this is a still Moses metaphorically ascribing a lifespan to himself. you are trying to argue against metaphorical lifespans in the bible by taking Moses' lifespan of 70 or 80 metaphorically.

I know. But the point is that Moses was not really one of them either, though he identified as such. He was no slave, but a prince in Egypt.

He was a Hebrew like they were, kept flocks like they did, he was a descendant of Abraham sharing the promise of faith as they did. Moses certainly shared all the things he spoke of in the psalm with the ones he called 'we' and 'our'. They were all sons of Adam, whose shared mortality Moses specifically mentions in the psalm, he considered them servants of God as he was, he shared God as his refuge with the people he is talking about too, he claimed to share the same 70 or 80 year lifespan.

pointed out the us, we, our, as opposed to the them already.
_____

You tried but not terribly successfully. If someone talks about 'we' and then 'them' and back to 'we' again does that mean he has changed the 'we' he is talking about?
Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.
8 They collapse and fall, but we rise and stand upright.
Same 'we', even with a them in between.

dad · #**179** 13th November 2009, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by Assyrian

Yes 'all generations'. On the other hand you haven't come up with the slightest indication he was talking about slaves. Ever notice how Moses finishes the psalm? Psalm 90:17 Let the favor of the Lord our God be upon us, and establish the work of our hands upon us; yes, establish the work of our hands! Do you think Moses was praying God would establish the store cities of Pithom and Raamses that were the work of the hands of Israelite slaves? Moses isn't talking about slaves at all.

No, maybe he referred to the people being tired of having the work of their hands NOT benefit them! If God freed them, then their work would start to be established.

Of course he wasn't talking about some law, he was describing the general lifespan. We don't know when Moses wrote this, though it fits his poetic eloquence in Deuteronomy at the end of his life rather than the time of the Exodus when he was slow of speech and tongue.

Reference?

Nor is there any indication Moses was speaking of the specific lifespan of slaves rather than the general human condition through all generations. Remember Moses included himself in his and he wasn't a slave and didn't have a slave lifespan. Of course even if you could show Moses was writing while the Israelites were still slaves and was talking about their slave lifespan, the bible still record the slave lifespans between 110 and 137 years, not 70 or 80. Really you just making this up with no regard for the actual text.

No, individual slaves many of whom were freed from slavery is what the exception to the rule was.

It is well known that slaves tend to live less time than average. As in this example

"The very harsh manual labour of the sugar cane fields saw slaves use hoes to dig large trenches. The slaves planted sugar cane in the trenches and then used their bare hands to spread manure. The average life span of a slave was eight years. In the mid to late 19th century, many Amerindians were enslaved to work on rubber plantations. See Içá for more information."
Slavery: Encyclopedia - Slavery

So, 70 years is no stretch.

The average slave lifespan is in fact 121 if the ages in the bible are literal. But Moses uses the same word 'our' for all generations and for the 70 or 80 year lifespan. Whether there is a demarcation line or not, Moses is speaking about the same people and includes himself in both.

Nonsense. There were millions of them, what, you use four or five, that were exceptions?

If

it was before he delivered the people, and if he was a lot more eloquent at that time than he claimed, and if he was talking about the reduced life expectancy of slaves rather than the normal life expectancy of all generations as he said, even though there is no reference to slavery, and if he was only being metaphorical when he included himself in the life expectancy, and if you assume the slaves' life expectancy actually was 70 or 80 years, and if you ignore the slave's life spans given in the bible, then what you end up is an interpretation based on your own wishful thinking rather than scripture. I don't see how this helps you.

Show me this Moses was not eloquent until he died thing? I would say the toil bit in Ps 90 and other bits dovetail well with the slaves. There was no reference to belly buttons either, but all were slaves, almost, and all had belly buttons. The only slave life span in the bible I am aware of, is this 70 to 80 years.

There were two points. While there are plenty of examples of a person identifying themself with people's sin, we don't have any example of identify with people's age or lifespan. Moses had a lifespan of 120 his father lived to 137, but he said he shared 'our' life span of 70 or 80.

The life span was just mentioned in passing, as part of their condition. We know Moses identified himself with the people.

" 9 And Moses said, We will go with our young and with our old, with our sons and with our daughters, with our flocks and with our herds will we go; for we must hold a feast unto the LORD.

Secondly, even if it were true, this is a still Moses metaphorically ascribing a lifespan to himself. you are trying to argue against metaphorical lifespans in the bible by taking Moses' lifespan of 70 or 80 metaphorically.

No, no more than he was ascribing a himself to be a child when he referred to the people as our, in the verse above. Also, if he did write ot early on, he would not know his life span.

He was a Hebrew like they were, kept flocks like they did, he was a descendant of Abraham sharing the promise of faith as they did. Moses certainly shared all the things he spoke of in the psalm with the ones he called 'we' and 'our'. They were all sons of Adam, whose shared mortality Moses specifically mentions in the psalm, he considered them servants of God as he was, he shared God as his refuge with the people he is talking about too, he claimed to share the same 70 or 80 year lifespan.

Impossible. We already have the life spans of Abraham and others recorded. To try to dismiss them is to disbelieve them. There is no need to have the shorter life spans of the enslaved people of Moses mean anything other than that. It is unreasonable. It opposes the rest of the bible. And it is entirely speculation.

You tried but not terribly successfully. If someone talks about 'we' and then 'them' and back to 'we' again does that mean he has changed the 'we' he is talking about?

A lot depends on the focus and application of whom is being discussed. The them and we, and our of Ps 90, revolve around the slaves. Therfore, the years of our lives also must. They certainly do not revolve around the fathers, like Adam. Or even Abraham, etc.

Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.
8 They collapse and fall, but we rise and stand upright.
Same 'we', even with a them in between.

The contrast there is believers, namely children of Abraham, against them, or the unbelievers. Nothing wrong with that.

So, now that you no longer have any excuse to disbelieve the life spans of the bible, will you persist, or consider looking at the bible in a new light?