Poll: Is Christianity Based On NT or the Entire Bible?

ebia · #21 27th September 2009, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by ittarter

If I was forced to "give up" the books I could "live without," I think all that would be left would be Genesis, Exodus, the Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Isaiah, one of the synoptic gospels, the letter to the Hebrews, and James.

Pretty similiar but I don't think I could manage without John 20, Colossians, Philippians and Philemon, but I could manage without Ecclesiastes and Hebrews.

I guess I'm not very appreciative of Paul

Keep reading Tom Wright!

ittarter · #22 27th September 2009, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by ebia

Keep reading Tom Wright!

You're right. That's exactly what I need.

At Bible College I developed a very "propositional" understanding of Christianity, and I think a traditional reading of Paul has limited my appreciation of him. In my head, I know he's not all about the propositional, but these damned translations make it difficult to see past all that doctrine-laden terminology.

Oh. The reason Ecclesiastes is so important to me is that it is the strongest counter-tradition in the Bible. Sometimes you need a book that tells you everything is in vain -- because sometimes I feel like that

And Hebrews is probably important to me for the same reason that I like Matthew's gospel.

IronManMatt · #23 28th September 2009, 12:15 AM

The law as recorded in the OT has always and will always apply to us.

Jesus said in Matthew 5: 17-20
17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Laws of what is right and wrong do not change. It was wrong to murder long before God said so in the form of the ten commandments (remember Cain and Abel). God's laws are not arbitrary rules. All of God's laws are refelections of His nature and relationships. For example God commands us to tell the truth because He cannot lie; God commands us to love everyone because He loves everyone. God did not just sit around and say, "gee I wonder what I should tell them to do next" Go did say "Be holy for I am holy". Something is good if it reflects God, somthing is bad (ie sin) if it does not reflect God.

But one might ask me why I don't kill goats on an alter. My answer is that many things changed when God came to earth and lived, died, and rose, as a man.

So how can we know what changed and what we are currently supposed to be doing. By studying the NT. The NT clarifies how the laws are different since Christ came. I don't really know how to say it any better than that but I know I'm not really doing the subject full justice. Because the reason behind the laws (God's nature) have not changed from the OT to the NT only how they are played out.

For example; in the OT people are command to kill animals for their sins. We no longer do that but why, because Christ died for all of our sins. Each one of us killed Jesus by sinning, so we have all participated in the sacrificial law. The law, killing something to take our place for our sins, did not change, the only thing that changed is how it is played out.

So one can only justify not following a command from the OT if they can find somewhere in the NT where we are told to obey that law in a different way. But be careful because the law (God's nature) never changes.

wildboar · #24 28th September 2009, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by ITTARTER

Dispensationalism is still popular among Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc. and covenantalism is more popular among the Reformed, Presbyterian, etc. I dunno about the high church.

Lutherans don't really fall within the covenental/dispensational framework. We are definitely not dispensational and are amil when it comes to our eschatology. I've never met a Lutheran pastor or even heard of one who held to dispensationalism. I'm sure there's probably people who members of Lutheran churches who are, I've just never met them or it hasn't come up. The Christ-centered method of Lutheran interpretation tends to provide a nice hedge against any kind of dispensationalism.

ittarter · #25 28th September 2009, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by wildboar

Lutherans don't really fall within the covenental/dispensational framework. We are definitely not dispensational and are amil when it comes to our eschatology. I've never met a Lutheran pastor or even heard of one who held to dispensationalism. I'm sure there's probably people who members of Lutheran churches who are, I've just never met them or it hasn't come up. The Christ-centered method of Lutheran interpretation tends to provide a nice hedge against any kind of dispensationalism.

Thanks for correcting me, Wildboar. I was under the impression that Luther's anti-Semitism had made a deep print on his descendants' theology. And more importantly, the strong law/grace disconnect that pervades Lutheran thinking. I'd appreciate if you could explain why you wouldn't describe this as dispensationalism. In my books, even two contrastive "ages" constitutes a dispensational approach.

Breckmin · #26 28th September 2009, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by IronManMatt

Jesus said in Matthew 5: 17-20
17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Excellent post Matt. Jesus kept the spirit of the law because He understood
how it applied. He fulfilled the law and therefore was Lord over the
law and was also the Law Giver and not just a follower of the law
as a ritual or to technical religious obedience. He understood that
the greatest law was loving God and loving our neighbors and that
the Spirit of the Law was subordinate to what God "ORIGINALLY"
intended and not what was permitted because of the hardness of
hearts.

Jesus is Lord over the Mosaic Law. Thanks Matt for bringing in the
best scripture for clarity.

JTornado1 · #27 8th October 2009, 11:36 AM

Although Christianity is based mostly on the NT, the NT quotes the OT approximately 300 times. For example, Revelation quotes heavily from Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Daniel.

James 1:27 · #28 8th October 2009, 11:48 AM

Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and all the prophets.

How can you separate the two??? It's all good!!!

JTornado1 · #29 8th October 2009, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by James 1:27

Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and all the prophets. How can you separate the two??? It's all good!!!

EXACTLY!

brinny · #30 8th October 2009, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Luke_Skywalker

I was always under the impression it was based on the entire Bible, but I seem to meet a lot of Christians who feel that the OT doesn't apply to them, only the Jews. What say ye?

Both. In the beginning is well, the beginning, and Revelation, is well the "finisher", the finality, because all will be fulfilled. It isn't until Revelation is written that an admonishment, a strong warning is given. And that is to not change the words of this final book.

In the very beginning, we are told of Christ's crushing the serpents head. In Revelation it speaks of His coming as Conqueror. When ALL will acknowledge Him as Lord of lords....those who love HIm and including those who despise His coming. ALL will bow and speak the truth of Who He is, and HAS been.

God, in His infinite wisdom, put forth both the old and the new testaments. Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of Him, the living God, is the fulfillment of ALL that was written in both testaments.