I'm still struggling with this

I have been struggling for about two years now about where I need to be as far as church.

I have a strong respect and belief in apostolic succession within the church. I do believe that we are the visible and invisible body of the church. I just have some resistance to some doctrines of the apostolic churches. I may have asked these before, but I want to see if I can get any new perspective on this.

1. Planned liturgy/mass. I know that tradition plays a large part of the faith, but aren't we called to worship Him individually? I don't mean in the Pentecostal type of worship (been there, did that, didn't bother getting a t-shirt), but also not in total alignment worldwide. Is there any room for the Holy Spirit to speak to the pastor and disrupt the planned homily?

2. Eucharist. Why is it a sin to miss a weekly mass/divine liturgy? I know that apostolic succession plays a part in why the minister has to celebrate, but I also believe that when believers come together and celebrate Him in meal and fellowship, that He would be there as well (He did say that whenever two or more come together for Him, He would be there).

3. Soul sleep vs. immediate ascention to heaven. I used to believe in soul sleep, but I'm leaning more toward immediate ascention.

4. Not being in communion with the church. Why is it that someone who honestly believes in Christ as his Savior, who has humbled himself before God, still is not considered part of the universal church if he isn't in communion with the church?

5. Can lay persons preach the Gospel? I'm specifically thinking of Anna proclaiming Christ is Lord in the Temple when He was born.

I have more questions, but these are the ones on my mind tonight. I appreciate any input.

Thanks!

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Yes, but the clergy lead on.

In the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, we pray with a lot of litanies. Most of which are litanies of thanksgiving in some way, shape or form. During the Litanies typically we need to be praying for other people, but I'm sure you can imagine the chaos if in a church of say 157 people there are all sorts of names being shouted out here and there. Just a mess.

In one Litany, there is a spot where the names of those who are ill, sick, infirm or even dieing are placed. Typically one may hear the names of a lot of seniors if one is listening So in terms of practicality, it is easier and makes greater sense for one person to say those names than say 1,500 people saying various names. And also each line in a Litany is followed by a "Lord have mercy".
When I was becoming Orthodox, I was taught that crossing oneself at a "Lord have mercy" was about the equivalent of saying "cheers" in a toast (I was sixteen, what can I say?) so doing so is a way of offering one's prayers here.


For what it's worth, the church where I actually became Orthodox was in Miami, FL and worshiped in English. I remember an old Romanian lady who had defected in the 1970s at this church and I remember seeing here in the corner hearing her pray all the litanies and singing most of the hymns kind of to herself in... Romanian

In the Orthodox Church, how one prays at home is mostly between you and God. Worshiping in a liturgical sort of places does not mean that one is not permitted to pray privately at home. We're supposed to do that the other six days a week. Sunday is when we worship as a community, as the Body of Christ you see.


I happen to know that the priests spend quite a bit of time preparing their homilies. Now, say during a homily they don't stick to what they prepared completely, well, oh well.
My church has five priests. About two years ago we had three. There was a Sunday once when one was out of town, another was late and the third ended up doing the Homily on the spot without any preparation whatsoever. Trust me, that Sunday after hearing the Epistle, the Gospel and then the priest's homily, knowing that he was not prepared whatsoever and could only 'work with' what he had just heard in the Gospel, there has been no doubt in my mind whatsoever about the Holy Spirit's involvement.

Although my personal favorite is when one priest gave the homily and had it planned and written for the wrong readings!

Trust me if the priest's pray as they are able to and with love of God and a dosage of humility, the Holy Spirit will help them.


That's getting a bit legalistic...

You know, the rule of thumb is you go when you are able. I know a lot of people who live miles and miles away from their nearest Orthodox church and are only able to make it at most once a month.

God is graceful and forgiving. He knows our situations and what prevents us from going to Liturgy and what helps us to get to Liturgy. How often somebody gets to Liturgy is between them and God because it is not our place to judge and the moment we start judging like that than we are no greater than the children of Israel when they built the golden calf at the foot of Mt. Sinai. Or the pharisees.

Not being able to get to Liturgy because the nearest church is 172 miles away is one thing. Not being able to get to Liturgy because of laziness is something else. Either way, God knows the circumstance and the best thing for the rest of us shmoes to do is to pray.

Eh? Sounds like life after death stuff... not my department.

The Jehova's Witnesses believe Christ is their Savior as well, yet they deny that Christ is/was divine, that is, they deny that Christ is God.
The Nestorians also believe Christ to be their Savior, yet they believe that Christ had two separate bodies: one divine and one humane.


Yes, we are united only in Christ, but when somebody changes exactly who Christ was or who they believe Him to be, than that is when divisions occur and the ramifications are too great for any one of us to truly begin to comprehend.

Christ died for us. Yet, if we deny that He is God, than what good is the death of another mere mortal? Any person can walk down the street and say "Christ is my Savior", yet not everybody will have the same understanding of what exactly those words mean.


In the Orthodox Church, we can only say where the Holy Spirit is. Those who are Orthodox know that He is within the Orthodox Church. What we CAN NOT say, is where the Holy Spirit is not. I can not say that the Holy Spirit is not within, say, the Roman Catholic Church because that could be denying how He works. And besides, I was originally Roman Catholic and so how could I have become Orthodox without the work of the Holy Spirit?

That is one way how people can deny the Holy Spirit: by saying where He is not.


"Always preach the Gospel and if necessary, use words"


It's 1AM, I'm tired, I'm going to bed. I hope this helped a small deal.

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Hi, HumbleMan!

Originally Posted by HumbleMan

I have been struggling for about two years now about where I need to be as far as church.

I have a strong respect and belief in apostolic succession within the church. I do believe that we are the visible and invisible body of the church. I just have some resistance to some doctrines of the apostolic churches. I may have asked these before, but I want to see if I can get any new perspective on this.

OK! However, I also have to say that--having read through your whole post already-- you seem to me to think that what some Apostolic Chuches think on some of these issues is believed across the board. My church, for instance, that has Apostolic Succession and dates from the first century, certainly does not follow along with all the assumptions you seem to be making...and which look to me to be based mainly upon your being familiar with Roman Catholicism.

1. Planned liturgy/mass. I know that tradition plays a large part of the faith, but aren't we called to worship Him individually? I don't mean in the Pentecostal type of worship (been there, did that, didn't bother getting a t-shirt), but also not in total alignment worldwide. Is there any room for the Holy Spirit to speak to the pastor and disrupt the planned homily?

We absolutely affirm that ceremonies can vary by nation and culture. The liturgy is the primary worship service of the church, but Morning and Evening Prayer are as much corporate worship, which is why some parishes alternate them with the Liturgy.

2. Eucharist. Why is it a sin to miss a weekly mass/divine liturgy?

It's not.

I know that apostolic succession plays a part in why the minister has to celebrate, but I also believe that when believers come together and celebrate Him in meal and fellowship, that He would be there as well (He did say that whenever two or more come together for Him, He would be there).

Well, God is certainly present whenever two or three are gathered, but the presence of Christ in the Liturgy is of a different, a special kind.

3. Soul sleep vs. immediate ascention to heaven. I used to believe in soul sleep, but I'm leaning more toward immediate ascention.

It's rare for anyone who belongs to any of the Apostolic Churches to believe in soul sleep, although I don't think that it's something to worry over too much.

Not being in communion with the church. Why is it that someone who honestly believes in Christ as his Savior, who has humbled himself before God, still is not considered part of the universal church if he isn't in communion with the church?

He certainly is part of the universal church!

5. Can lay persons preach the Gospel?

Under certain circumstances, yes.

I'm specifically thinking of Anna proclaiming Christ is Lord in the Temple when He was born.

That's not "preaching the Gospel," however.

Still, the church does have lay readers who perform some of the functions you may have in mind.

Thanks!

You're welcome

Hey, HumbleMan! Are you in Humble? I'm in the Dallas area.

I agree pretty much with everything Albion said, but thought I'd add a couple of things, from an Orthodox perspective - which is usually pretty close to the Anglican perspective.

1. Planned liturgy/mass. I know that tradition plays a large part of the faith, but aren't we called to worship Him individually? I don't mean in the Pentecostal type of worship (been there, did that, didn't bother getting a t-shirt), but also not in total alignment worldwide. Is there any room for the Holy Spirit to speak to the pastor and disrupt the planned homily?

I feel the Holy Spirit at work in the Divine Liturgy more than I ever have anywhere else. Just because it's "formal" doesn't mean the Holy Spirit isn't working in each of us and especially corporately in the service itself.

2. Eucharist. Why is it a sin to miss a weekly mass/divine liturgy? I know that apostolic succession plays a part in why the minister has to celebrate, but I also believe that when believers come together and celebrate Him in meal and fellowship, that He would be there as well (He did say that whenever two or more come together for Him, He would be there).

I agree with Albion that it isn't necessarily a sin to miss, depending on your reason for missing, but neither is missing the opportunity to receive the very Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, to be taken lightly. Do you remember Jesus' parable of the Wedding Banquet and how the people who were invited made excuses (some very reasonable - like taking care of their business, or family, etc) and so others were called in to take their place? It comes down to what is *most* important to us.

3. Soul sleep vs. immediate ascention to heaven. I used to believe in soul sleep, but I'm leaning more toward immediate ascention.

I thought "soul sleep" was only a belief among SDAs. I"m not sure what you mean by immediate ascension to heaven, though. Orthodox believe that we receive an immediate "foretaste" of our eternal destination at death, but we wait for the 2nd Coming and Resurrection.

4. Not being in communion with the church. Why is it that someone who honestly believes in Christ as his Savior, who has humbled himself before God, still is not considered part of the universal church if he isn't in communion with the church?

I think you may be confusing 2 separate issues here. Being in the Church is not necessarily the same as "being saved". As an Orthodox Christian, I do believe it is the church of the Apostles, and it is best to be visibly/physically in communion with her, but I also believe that there are many, many people outside of the church who love God and will be saved.

5. Can lay persons preach the Gospel? I'm specifically thinking of Anna proclaiming Christ is Lord in the Temple when He was born.

As Albion said, it is part of the role of the Priest in worship to proclaim (read and preach) the Gospel, but if we as laypeople aren't proclaiming the Gospel with our words and lives, then we aren't following Christ.



Mary

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