| Soteriology The forum to discuss the theological doctrine of salvation. |
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19th September 2009, 07:22 AM
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Paul states, "Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
Two things necessary for faith to be possible: (1) a human being and (2) the message about Christ
The idea that "faith" is a gift received at conversion / regeneration / born from above is absent support as Paul clearly tells us in R10:17.
Only humans can have faith and all possess the capacity to trust, because humans are created in the image of God. As such and in agreement with Paul in R10:17 the concept that faith is a gift is only relative to such a framing of thought as it agrees with R10:17. On its own the assumption that "faith" is injected into the "heart, mind, and soul" of an individual at regeneration or after is not supported in Scripture.
We have demonstrated clearly on a number of occasions the fact that there are no grounds in Scripture for supporting a OR of being saved first and having faith second. This statement is grounded in Titus 3:5 which defines "saved" as "washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" This verse established the facts: regeneration is salvation, salvation is regeneration. As such and because the Scripture declares it, faith is first and salvation second, never in scripture explained, listed, or given in the opposite order, not once.
Last edited by Benefactor; 25th September 2009 at 10:41 PM.
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19th September 2009, 09:11 AM
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Reps: 356,174,066,385,127,360 (power: 356,174,066,385,150) | | Originally Posted by Benefactor  Paul states, "Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
Two things necessary for faith to be possible: (1) a human being and (2) the message about Christ
The idea that "faith" is a gift received at conversion / regeneration / born from above is absent support as Paul clearly tells us in R10:17.
Only humans can have faith and all possess the capacity to trust, because humans are created in the image of God. As such and in agreement with Paul in R10:17 the concept that faith is a gift is only relative to such a framing of thought as it agrees with R10:17. On its own the assumption that "faith" is injected into the "heart, mind, and soul" of an individual at regeneration or after is not supported in Scripture.
We have demonstrated clearly on a number of occasions the fact that there are no grounds in Scripture for supporting a OR of being saved first and having faith second. This statement is grounded in Titus 3:5 which defines "saved" as "washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" This verse established the facts: regeneration is salvation, salvation is regeneration. As such and because the Scripture declares it, faith is first and salvation second, never in scripture explained, listed, or given in the opposite order, not once.
No this mantra has NOT been proven. It has only been repeated as though repetition alone would make it true. Regeneration is logically the beginning of salvation, but it is not the whole of salvation, as is being asserted here. Conflating the terms that way confuses the issue, which is the only way that the other assertions can be made to fit.
No Calvinist has asserted that one is saved first, and has faith second. that is the source of this misunderstanding, calling regeneration salvation. It is not the same thing. One must be regenerated in order to be saved, and one cannot be saved without faith, but there is no scriptural proof that faith comes before regeneration. Asserting that Originally Posted by Benefactor "On its own the assumption that "faith" is injected into the "heart, mind, and soul" of an individual at regeneration or after is not supported in Scripture."
is an argument from absence, rather than an argument from actual statement.
Arguments from silence, and arguments from absence have no proof. That being the case, there is no proof for these assertions being made against Calvinism (for that is the real goal here). Repeating them only makes it more obvious what the real intent is of all this dust that is being kicked up to obscure the Truth.
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Jas 1:2-4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. But let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.
Be exalted, O God, above the heavens! Let your glory be over all the earth! (Psa 57:5)
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19th September 2009, 09:25 AM
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Reps: 183,297,172,154,452,576 (power: 183,297,172,154,470) | | Originally Posted by Benefactor Paul states, "Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
Two things necessary for faith to be possible: (1) a human being and (2) the message about Christ
The idea that "faith" is a gift received at conversion / regeneration / born from above is absent support as Paul clearly tells us in R10:17.
Only humans can have faith and all possess the capacity to trust, because humans are created in the image of God. As such and in agreement with Paul in R10:17 the concept that faith is a gift is only relative to such a framing of thought as it agrees with R10:17. On its own the assumption that "faith" is injected into the "heart, mind, and soul" of an individual at regeneration or after is not supported in Scripture.
Of course if you bothered to keep reading the text you would see in Romans 10:21 that God is clearly the primary force in conversion. True, man responds in faith but not until he is able to do so. Vs 20 says "And Isaiah boldly says (in Isaiah 65:1),
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me"
It is clearly showing that regeneration IS a part of conversion.  |
19th September 2009, 09:40 AM
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Reps: 74,246,822,550,068,064 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Behe's Boy Of course if you bothered to keep reading the text you would see in Romans 10:21 that God is clearly the primary force in conversion. True, man responds in faith but not until he is able to do so. Vs 20 says "And Isaiah boldly says (in Isaiah 65:1),
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me"
It is clearly showing that regeneration IS a part of conversion.
What is regeneration to you ?
Also, Romans 1 says that God is manifest (revealed) to those who hold the truth in unrighteousness... so according to your logic here, they were regenerated first, correct..? |
19th September 2009, 09:40 AM
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Reps: 1,400,797,941,396,427,520 (power: 1,400,797,941,396,449) | | Originally Posted by Benefactor Paul states, "Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
Two things necessary for faith to be possible: (1) a human being and (2) the message about Christ
contra (1): James 2:16.
contra (2): Hebrews 11.
Faith is more than the gospel. Paul's speaking of a specific kind of faith, contextually, because "faith" is such a broad term. It's not narrowly focused as a religious term at this time. Originally Posted by Benefactor The idea that "faith" is a gift received at conversion / regeneration / born from above is absent support as Paul clearly tells us in R10:17.
Paul doesn't clearly tell us anything about what he doesn't tell us. I believe what you've just asserted is false, prima facie.
Where is it " Paul clearly tells us" this faith receipt is " absent support"?
You said Paul clearly tells us it's absent support. But there's no clarity in Romans 10:17.
" Faith comes out of hearing, and hearing comes through the Word of Christ."
It is quite unclear and easily arguable that more is involved. So this is not an exclusive statement. To demonstrate: " For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." If Paul at 10:17 were making an exclusive statement -- then 10:10 would also be excluded. 10:17 says nothing about the heart, nor the mouth. So just as clearly, faith would not come from the heart, nor confession from the mouth, if 10:17 were an exclusive statement. Originally Posted by Benefactor Only humans can have faith and all possess the capacity to trust, because humans are created in the image of God. As such and in agreement with Paul in R10:17 the concept that faith is a gift is only relative to such a framing of thought as it agrees with R10:17. On its own the assumption that "faith" is injected into the "heart, mind, and soul" of an individual at regeneration or after is not supported in Scripture.
Well, that's false, and that's obvious. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit 1 Cor 12:8-9
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith Gal 5:22
But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who on coming to Antioch spoke to the Hellenists also, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord. 22The report of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. 23When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad Ac 11:20-24
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. Rom 12:3
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Ep 2:8
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers. 1 Thes 2:13 Originally Posted by Benefactor We have demonstrated clearly on a number of occasions the fact that there are no grounds in Scripture for supporting a OR of being saved first and having faith second.
And as no hypercalvinist is hanging out here at the moment, you've received essentially no interest in the model you propose. But Calvinists don't agree with you that New Birth is identified as salvation, soup-to-nuts. Originally Posted by Benefactor This statement is grounded in Titus 3:5 which defines "saved" as "washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" This verse established the facts: regeneration is salvation, salvation is regeneration. As such and because the Scripture declares it, faith is first and salvation second, never in scripture explained, listed, or given in the opposite order, not once.
... which interpretation has been rejected as there are no grounds to identify salvation with regeneration, en toto. According to Titus 3:5 salvation is through the washing of regeneration. One is through the other. The car may come through the tunnel -- it doesn't make the tunnel into the car.
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"... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms Canons of Dordt, 1.16
"Have I become your enemy by telling the truth?" Paul
Last edited by heymikey80; 19th September 2009 at 09:45 AM.
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19th September 2009, 09:48 AM
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Reps: 183,297,172,154,452,576 (power: 183,297,172,154,470) | | Originally Posted by Ghost air What is regeneration to you ?
Also, Romans 1 says that God is manifest (revealed) to those who hold the truth in unrighteousness... so according to your logic here, they were regenerated first, correct..?
It should be pretty clear where I stand on this issue. Romans 10 is clearly talking about conversion of unbelievers. Romans 10:21 shows clearly that God's action comes first in the process.
There is no misuse of logic based on your assesment of Romans 1. It's not talking about salvation but the destruction of the wicked. It's irrelevant to this discussion. |
19th September 2009, 10:04 AM
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Reps: 1,400,797,941,396,427,520 (power: 1,400,797,941,396,449) | | Originally Posted by Ghost air What is regeneration to you ?
What most people mean in modern times is the event of birth to spiritual life. That is, someone is truly brought to life in the world of the Spirit. The new, spiritual creation is worked on the heart of the person.
Historically regeneration has referred to a process -- the period of bringing someone to life and growth in the Spirit -- not simply the event of birth. And when it's used in this sense "regeneration" has a much broader meaning of any interaction between the Spirit and the person.
So there's an ambiguity in Christian theology as a whole. Originally Posted by Ghost air Also, Romans 1 says that God is manifest (revealed) to those who hold the truth in unrighteousness... so according to your logic here, they were regenerated first, correct..?
Rom 1 actually says what can be known about God -- that is, the facts about God's existence deduced from creation -- are clearly visible. It actually doesn't say God Himself is revealed to them.
And "invisible ... clearly seen" doesn't mean someone actually sees. " Their uncomprehending hearts were darkened". It means we all should have seen, but didn't. We're subject to the charge of blasphemy, all.
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"... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms Canons of Dordt, 1.16
"Have I become your enemy by telling the truth?" Paul
Last edited by heymikey80; 19th September 2009 at 10:34 AM.
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19th September 2009, 10:05 AM
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Reps: 1,129,355,654,939,179 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Behe's Boy Of course if you bothered to keep reading the text you would see in Romans 10:21 that God is clearly the primary force in conversion. True, man responds in faith but not until he is able to do so. Vs 20 says "And Isaiah boldly says (in Isaiah 65:1),
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me"
It is clearly showing that regeneration IS a part of conversion. Revelation is not synonymous with salvation. What does revealed mean? re⋅veal 1.to make known; disclose; divulge: to reveal a secret. 2.to lay open to view; display; exhibit. Revealed Definition | Definition of Revealed at Dictionary.com Romans 10 Paul tells the Roman's that "faith comes by hearing" Verses 16 states that not all that received the good news believed. They had the object (correct data, the gospel) and some chose not to believe. Verse 21 is the giving of this same truth to the Gentiles, not all that God revealed Himself to believe. As to this verse teaching regeneration that is not suggested, implied, or mention in this verse. The prophecy is in reference to the giving of the gospel to the gentiles. See Acts 2. As well the prison guard asks Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" They replied "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." When the jailer asks this question he was lost and when he believed he was regenerated. |
19th September 2009, 10:08 AM
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Reps: 183,297,172,154,452,576 (power: 183,297,172,154,470) | | Originally Posted by Benefactor Revelation is not synonymous with salvation. What does revealed mean?
re⋅veal 1.to make known; disclose; divulge: to reveal a secret. 2.to lay open to view; display; exhibit.
I'm not saying it IS salvation - I'm saying it's part of it. I've seen a post a mile long on this thread explaining that to you.
Nobody is getting saved until God makes them able to. Romans 10:17-21 plainly shows that. Stick to the plain reading of the text.
Last edited by student ad x; 23rd September 2009 at 09:01 PM.
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19th September 2009, 10:28 AM
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Reps: 356,174,066,385,127,360 (power: 356,174,066,385,150) | | Originally Posted by Benefactor Revelation is not synonymous with salvation. What does revealed mean? re⋅veal 1.to make known; disclose; divulge: to reveal a secret. 2.to lay open to view; display; exhibit. Revealed Definition | Definition of Revealed at Dictionary.com Romans 10 Paul tells the Roman's that "faith comes by hearing" Verses 16 states that not all that received the good news believed. They had the object (correct data, the gospel) and some chose not to believe. Verse 21 is the giving of this same truth to the Gentiles, not all that God revealed Himself to believe. As to this verse teaching regeneration that is not suggested, implied, or mention in this verse. The prophecy is in reference to the giving of the gospel to the gentiles. See Acts 2. As well the prison guard asks Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" They replied "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." When the jailer asks this question he was lost and when he believed he was regenerated.
If faith comes by hearing, then man does not natively possess this faith. yet it has been asserted that they do. Thus, scripture trumps false assertions, such as have been made here by those whose goal is to discredit Calvinist theology, which is, as I have stated, the real thrust of these posts.
The Opening Post has been thoroughly discredited, and shown to be based on false interpretation, selective interpretation, and fabricated assertions without either sanction or proof from Scripture.
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Jas 1:2-4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. But let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.
Be exalted, O God, above the heavens! Let your glory be over all the earth! (Psa 57:5)
We didn't believe in order to be born again, we were born again in order to believe.
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are...
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