Questions for the home church

I love that you guys have stepped away from the institutionalized setting of the "traditional" church and back to the fellowship common among our first century bretheren. It is with that in mind that I pose a few questions. These questions are on specific end time doctrines. The reason I am asking them here is because of the fellowship atmosphere rather than a specific authority who essentially tells us what to believe. Don't get me wrong I feel pastors that are truly led of God are wonderful, but in short supply these days. So in complete fellowship I am going to present some questions and then share my views that way we may all learn and grow.

1. Do you believe in a pretrib doctrine?

2. Do you believe in a "the" antichrist?

3. Do you believe tribulation will last for seven years?

4. What do you believe the lion-bear-leapord beast of Revelation to be?

5. Who are the two witnesses in Revelation?

6. What is the abomination of desolation?

I will await your answers anxiously. I will say in advance that I am not trying to attack any doctrines. I feel we are all free to believe what we want. I simply want to share some things I have seen and want to know what others have to say on the matter so that I will have a good starting point.

God bless you all

I don't know if I qualify for your question or not - but I have worshiped at home for the last 4 years with my husband, we have a wonderful personal walk with Jesus.

Your questions....

1. Yes I believe in pre-trib - after Chapter 4 in Revelations, you do not find the church anymore - the church is in Heaven.

2. Yes I believe in the anti-christ - Once the church has been taken out - the anti-christ will appear.

3. Yes I believe the trib will last 7 years. - 3-1/2 years good and the last 3-1/2 years the like we have never seen.

4. The beast in Revelations represent the countries that surround Israel and will be in the final war.

5. I believe the two witnesses will be Elijah and Moses.

6. The abomination of desolation is when the anti-christ goes into the Holy of Holies and declares that he is God.

Look forward to reading some of the answers.

__________________

I must apologize beforehand as this is going to be a lengthy post. Please bear with me. And remember this isn't an attack on anyones beliefs. It is merely another way to view things.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The church is comprised of a body of believers. Here in chapter 7 are a body of believers. Also the church is mentioned later.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Many people fancy the notion of Jesus calling the original church home and then coming back for those who got their act together during the seven year tribulation but that constitutes a third coming of Christ. Furthermore we are told that we are all called up at the last trump.

1Cr 15:52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If we are called up at the last trump then how could there be another ingathering of the believers.

Let's review the only verses in the whole Bible that mention the anti-christ.

1Jo 2:18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jo 4:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

That's it. Those four verses. And we learn that the antichrist is not a singular person, but rather a spirit and anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ come in the flesh. That antichrist was present in John's day and that there were many. And very important we learn that the end time began in John's day. I will go ahead and address the verse on the man of sin.

2Th 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Many people use this to verify the antichrist setting himself up in the rebuilt temple of God. But there is a major flaw in this doctrine. What does the New Testament say is the temple of God?

1Cr 3:16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 3:17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

1Cr 6:19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2Cr 6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Even Jesus said that the temple of God was His body. Furthermore how can a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem really be the temple of God when Jesus said:Jhn 4:21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

The scriptures are very specific that God does not dwell in temples made of stones anymore. So the man of sin is an internal advasary that must be contended with.

This part will address all questions but the identity of the lion,bear,leapord beast.

Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

God gives Ezekiel a day for a year in prophecy. Let's see where else this applies.

Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

1290 days are given here. So by Ezekiel 4:6 we should view them as years. So Daniel was told that there would be 1290 "days" from the time sacrafices were taken away until the abomination of desolation was to be set up.

Daniel used a lunar calendar though and we use a solar calendar so we need to convert. 1290 lunar years is 1271.5 solar years. 586BC was the year that the rest of the Jews were taken into captivity. However according to scripture it was three years later until the daily sacrafices were stopped. So we start counting at 583BC.
583BC + 1271.5= 688.5AD. Remember this date. It is the date Daniel says that the abomination of desolation would be set up.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

As Jewish idioms go time, times, and the dividing of time = 2.5 not 3.5.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The original greek word (hemera) translated here as day does not always mean day. It is also used as a word for time. Strong's concordance is given here.

hemera-4) used of time in general

Therefore 2Pe 3:8 could also be read,"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one time [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one time.

Why is that important? Well let's apply it to the time, times, and the dividing of time in Daniel. Remember as Jewish sayings are understood it equals 2.5. So 2.5 multiplied by 1000 equals 2500 years. 552BC was the year this prophecy was given.So we will count from there. 552BC + 2500 = 1948AD. Remember this date.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

So with our understanding of time we will count from when this prophecy is given.
533BC was the year this prophecy was given so we will count from there. 533BC + 2500 = 1967AD. Remember this date.

Let us turn to the seventy weeks now.

Dan 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

So the prophecy says that from the going forth of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah comes to fulfill prophecy will be 69 weeks or 483 days. Remember days = years. We know for a fact days doesn't mean days here because Jesus didn't show up for hundreds of years after the decree came down. Also remember we have to convert from lunar to solar years so our calendars will match. 483 lunar years converts to 476 solar years. 444Bc is the year that Artaxerxes gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. So 444BC + 476 = 32AD. Remember this date.

Let us review the first seven weeks. 7 weeks = 49 days. 49 lunar years converts to 48 solar years. 444BC + 48.3 = 395.7BC. This is the year that the last book of the Old Testament was written. Why does that matter? "...to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." Prophecy was sealed up until Jesus came on the scene. This 400 year gap cause great lamentation in Israel.

The last week of Daniel is really what gets people confused. They think it is to be a seven year tribulation in the future. But Jewish time was reckoned differently in Daniel's day. So if the 70th Week isn’t about a Seven-Year Great Tribulation,
what is it actually about?

The Levitical Code
1st: One Seven (a shavua) of years.
2nd: Seven sevens (shavua) of years.
3rd: One unique Jubilee (shavua) year with 360 Sabbaths.

Daniel’s 70 Weeks
1st: Seven sevens of years, 7 Shavuim.
2nd: 62 more sevens of years, 62 Shavuim.
3rd: One unique Shavua with 360 Sabbaths.

The seventieth week was distinguished in Daniel with the word Shavua instead of Shavuim. So according to Levitical Code this last week would be 7 multiplied by 360. 7 * 360 = 2520 lunar years. 2520 lunar converts to 2484 solar years. Since the seventieth week was left out concerning the decree to rebuild Jerusalem we will count from the year the prophecy came down. 536BC was the year of this prophecy. 536BC + 2484 = 1948AD. Remember this date.

Now let's turn to Revelations.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

Here we read that the court outside the temple is given unto the Gentiles. And that they would tread underfoot Jerusalem for 42 months. Since John used a solar calendar we don't need to convert to solar years. A solar month is 30.44 days. So 42 multiplied by 30.44 = 1278.5

Since this scripture is talking about the abomination of desolation, as we will see later, that is to be set up we will use 688.5BC, as established in Daniel, as a starting point. 688.5AD + 1278.5 = 1967AD. Remember this date.

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Who are the two witnesses?

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Where have we heard candlesticks and olive trees before?

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The
seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven
churches.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the [Jewish] branches be broken off, and thou [the Gentile church], being a wild olive tree,
wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

Romans 11:24 For if thou [the Gentiles] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary
to nature into a good olive tree [the Jews]: how much more shall these [the Jews], which be the natural branches, be
grafted into their own olive tree?

Here we read that the two witnesses are two churches. Jewish and Gentile. They will be given power to prophecy 1260 days. Days = Years in prophecy so let's see what we get. 688.5AD + 1260 = 1948AD

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

As of 1948 the Jewish people are no longer witnessing to other nations because they are in their own country.So 688AD + 1260 = 1948AD.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

We read that a place is prepared for the woman (Israel). The understanding of times comes into play here again. 724BC was the year the Jews were originally taken into captivity. 724BC + 2500 = 1776. This is the year that the place is prepared for the woman. Remember this date.

Let's review. Scripture says that the Jewish people will become a nation again.(1948AD) That the time of the Gentiles would be over and Jerusalem would return to the Jews. (1967AD) That the abomination of desolation would be set up in the court of the Gentiles.(688AD) And that a place would be prepared for Israel. (1776)

1948- Israel became a nation again.
1967- Israel regained Jerusalem in the six-day war.
688- Dome of the Rock was constructed in honor of Muhammad. Inside is a plaque that reads, "Far be it from His transcendent majesty that God should have a son." What does the Bible say about such an attitude? 1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Notice in Revelations that the court of the gentiles was to be left out. Why? It is given unto the gentiles. It happens that the dome of the Rock is constructed in the court of the gentiles.

1776- United States of America declared her independence and now hosts a Jewish population of millions. Effectively shielding them from Muhammad's religion which states in it's hadith, "'The Hour [of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews and the rock and the tree will say: O Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"

If you would like to read more on this then check out the pdf "The False Prophet" available at beholdthebeast.com. I will leave the question of lion,bear,leapord open as a teaser to read. Even if you don't necessarily agree with what I have posted what is the worst that can happen if you read the pdf?

I am pretty much a preterist in my view. John wrote a letter to real people. Like all letters it was meant to communicate something to its recipients. The imagery can be understood within a local and historical context once you understand the cultural references.

Of course the book ends with a vision of something yet to come, the wonderful fullness of our redemption when heaven and earth are once again fully united.

John
NZ

I understand why people take that view. And what is important is that we agree that Jesus is Lord. Our eschatological views do not preclude us from salvation. However I fear that if more people were to treat Christ's coming as imminent we might get more done spiritually. The seven year tribulation theory essentially teaches that if you miss the boat you will have seven years to get it right. IF they are right no big deal. IF they are wrong HUGE deal for those who miss Jesus' return. If you are interested in exploring this particular subject then I invite you to read "The False Prophet" on beholdthebeast.com. It was an eye opening experience for me and does the subject more justice as it goes into detail. Thank you all for your responses. Please keep them coming.

God bless

I'll answer the first couple of questions.

No, I don't see any evidence at all for the tribulation being pre-trib in the Bible. I do see people arguing for it based on circular reasoning, arguing that that which restrains has to do with the rapture of the church.

II Thessalonians opens up telling us in the first several verses, that God will give 'you' (the church in Thessalonica, if taken in a strict sense) rest when Christ comes, executing vengence on evil doers.

So we see in that passage one coming of Christ. At the coming of Christ, the believers receive rest and the wicked are punished. There is no seven year gap in the passage.

I Corinthians 15 shows us Christ us that the resurrection occurs at Christ's coming, not seven years before it.

And there is no indication that Christ is coming back two times in the Bible after His ascension.

A friend of mine pointed out several years ago that the Bible never specifically designates the man of sin, or 'the beast' as 'the antiChrist.' I John says that the spirit of antichrist was already in the world. I do believe in a literal man of sin.

Something to consider.

"A simple look into the original language used bears out what was being said. The Greek word used in describing a physical stone temple as the one that existed in Jerusalem is “hieron” (hee-er-on’) 2411: meaning: a sacred place, temple, used of the temple of Artemis at Ephesus, used of the temple at Jerusalem

It is used 67 times in the NT in verses such as Matthew 21:12 speaking of the then standing stone temple;

And Jesus went into the temple (hieron) of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple (hieron), and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Every time the physical stone temple is referred to the word “hieron” is used.

The Greek word that Paul used in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 speaking of the “temple of God” was not “hieron” but rather the word “naos” (nah-os’) 3485: and means: used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ

Every time Jesus speaks of the holiest of holies of His body, the word “naos” is used, never “hieron.” It is used 40 times in the NT and every time it speaks ONLY of the body of Jesus, the body of Spirit filled believers or the holy of holies behind the veil in the stone temple. "

So it begs the question. IF the man of sin is literal how would he sit in the body of believers? The temple that Paul was talking of in this verse.

God bless