But the US HAS tortured. Water boarding is a form of torture which has been used for centuries, and is acknowledged as such.
The US form of waterboarding does not equate with torture. It is not the same or near as harsh as waterboarding procedures uses by other nations in the past. The US has not tortured.
Plus they have used other forms of torture as well.
Such as?
Furthermore the school of the Americas did (does?) train in torture techniques and similar things.
How do you know that?
The US has backed military juntas,
True.
including through arming them and training personnel to perform torture and similar things.
Again, how do you know that torture techniques were among the support given?
This is very evident if you do a tiny bit of background research. There are even torture methods in "the freedom fighters' manual" - which was (is?) made and distributed by the CIA.
What are those alleged torture methods?
You say you don't ignore the Iran/Contra scandal and then go on to saying you still don't think the US trained/trains guerrillas or terrorists. This is simply ludicrous. The Contras were BOTH terrorists and guerrilla.
The Contras were not terrorists.
And what about DINA, Pinochet's Chilean secret police? The CIA has admitted to DINA being a paid and trained asset. It is also known that the CIA supported Pinochet's coup, and his military regime after the coup.
What kind of support was DINA getting from the CIA after the coup.
__________________ Ecclesiastes 10:2The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.
The US form of waterboarding does not equate with torture. It is not the same or near as harsh as waterboarding procedures uses by other nations in the past. The US has not tortured.
Plus numerous other sites and sources. Personally though, I think the red cross should hold some authority.
Originally Posted by oldbetang
Such as?
Well, the US has said the following is torture:
* stripping and blindfolding of prisoners (Egypt)
* subjecting prisoners to prolonged sun exposure in high temperatures and
* tying of hands and feet for extended periods (Eritrea)
* sleep deprivation and "suspension for long periods in contorted positions" (Iran)
* sleep deprivation and solitary confinement (Jordan)
* prolonged standing and isolation (Turkey
Now, what of these seem known to you? Do they remind you of any news reports from US treatment of prisoners per chance?
Again, how do you know that torture techniques were among the support given?
Just google it a bit, please. I don't have time. I have three major reports due tomorrow. Calculus, physics, and nanomaterial related.
Originally Posted by oldbetang
What are those alleged torture methods?
Originally Posted by oldbetang
The Contras were not terrorists.
Excuse me? Targeting health care clinics and health care workers for assassination, kidnapping, torturing civilians and executing civilians - including children - who were captured in combat, raping women and indiscriminately attacking civilians and civilian houses is NOT terrorism? Righty-o.... So, according to you - what IS terrorism?
Originally Posted by oldbetang
What kind of support was DINA getting from the CIA after the coup.
That article refers to confidential reports that the International Red Cross made to the government in which they accused the US military of tactics "tantamount to torture". The info. there is rather vague and I know of no substantiation that they have since offered to back up their charge.
Yes, Richard Armitage. The guy who outed the CIA agent. "As far as he is concerned" the waterboarding of Zubaydah et al was torture. He is entitled to his opinion, but that's all that it is.
Well, the US has said the following is torture:
* stripping and blindfolding of prisoners (Egypt)
* subjecting prisoners to prolonged sun exposure in high temperatures and
* tying of hands and feet for extended periods (Eritrea)
* sleep deprivation and "suspension for long periods in contorted positions" (Iran)
* sleep deprivation and solitary confinement (Jordan)
* prolonged standing and isolation (Turkey
Now, what of these seem known to you? Do they remind you of any news reports from US treatment of prisoners per chance?
I can't imagine how the first one could ever be construed to be torture . However, the rest of them could potentially be torturous. It all depends on the degree to which they are used. Or perhaps even being used together could meet the standard of torture.
In the context of the Cold War, when the alternative is an undemocratic brutal regime that will side with the Evil Empire, then it makes perfect sense to choose the one who will side with you.
I have three major reports due tomorrow. Calculus, physics, and nanomaterial related.
Good luck on those.
Excuse me? Targeting health care clinics and health care workers for assassination, kidnapping, torturing civilians and executing civilians - including children - who were captured in combat, raping women and indiscriminately attacking civilians and civilian houses is NOT terrorism? Righty-o.... So, according to you - what IS terrorism?
The Contras did all that?? Are you sure? Was that a top down policy or were there just a few bad apples?
That article refers to confidential reports that the International Red Cross made to the government in which they accused the US military of tactics "tantamount to torture". The info. there is rather vague and I know of no substantiation that they have since offered to back up their charge.
Yes, Richard Armitage. The guy who outed the CIA agent. "As far as he is concerned" the waterboarding of Zubaydah et al was torture. He is entitled to his opinion, but that's all that it is.
I can't imagine how the first one could ever be construed to be torture . However, the rest of them could potentially be torturous. It all depends on the degree to which they are used. Or perhaps even being used together could meet the standard of torture.
You'll excuse me if I don't trust the source. It's pretty hard to take seriously someone who writes stuff like this:
Was Abe Lincoln Gay? - November 4, 2004 The blockbuster book that will change America’s history News By Doug Ireland
Homo Hate - November 4, 2004 Kerry loses to Rove’s anti-gay hysteria News By Doug Ireland
Gays on the Ropes - December 2, 2004 Democrats in denial blame gays for Bush’s victory
In the context of the Cold War, when the alternative is an undemocratic brutal regime that will side with the Evil Empire, then it makes perfect sense to choose the one who will side with you.
Good luck on those.
The Contras did all that?? Are you sure? Was that a top down policy or were there just a few bad apples?
I will! I'll have to filter out The National Security Archive's leftist bias though.
Have you considered the possibility of bias from your own position? I don't know, but I sincerely doubt any US governmental agency is biased to the left politically. The US is a very far-right country.
Of course in addition there's what my sister told me after living in Nicaragua, but that's not something we have written down or have any strong sources to cite on at this moment. From what info I have gotten though it is hard to conclude with anything other than that the contras were evil indeed. Cutting pregnant women open and gutting the child in front of the fathers of the infants is one example of terror they utilized to spread their (and the US' political message). They were terrorists through and through.
Why? Well, it works. The Nicaraguan people still (by and large) want a socialistic government. But they are too cowed to pursue it again, even democratically. Because any attempt at doing so will undoubtedly be met with further US-funded terrorism.
__________________
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
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I don't know, but I sincerely doubt any US governmental agency is biased to the left politically. The US is a very far-right country.
You're wrong on both accounts. Your perception is warped by your own far-left government and media. Currently, pretty much all US government agencies are biased to the left politically.
Of course in addition there's what my sister told me after living in Nicaragua, but that's not something we have written down or have any strong sources to cite on at this moment. From what info I have gotten though it is hard to conclude with anything other than that the contras were evil indeed. Cutting pregnant women open and gutting the child in front of the fathers of the infants is one example of terror they utilized to spread their (and the US' political message). They were terrorists through and through.
Why? Well, it works. The Nicaraguan people still (by and large) want a socialistic government. But they are too cowed to pursue it again, even democratically. Because any attempt at doing so will undoubtedly be met with further US-funded terrorism.
Reed Brody evidently believes that he can use the same tactics of disinformation on readers of COMMENTARY that he used on naive members of Congress when he wrote about contra human-rights abuses.
This is the basic reality, unchanged by anything Mr. Brody has said in his letter: the “investigative report” he produced was conceived in the first place by paid agents of the Sandinista dictatorship as a propaganda weapon in the psychological-warfare campaign the Nicaraguan Communists are waging in America against the Nicaraguan resistance to the Ortega regime and ultimately against the United States itself. Arrangements for his on-site “investigation” in Nicaragua were made by the same paid agents for the Sandinistas, the Washington law firm of Reichler and Appelbaum, who handpicked Mr. Brody for the assignment.
Until 1984, the Sandinista legal account was held by the Atlanta law firm of Powell, Goldstein, Frazer, and Murphy. Paul Reichler and his assistant Judy Appelbaum worked on the firm's Nicaraguan desk, with the understanding that their representation was to be non-political and and limited to commercial and normal litigation matters. In the spring of 1984, Reichler's activities in behalf of the Nicaraguan Communists began to go beyond what the firm felt an attorney's duties should be and he was asked to leave. Reichler did leave, accompanied by Judy Appelbaum, taking the Sandinista account with them. With the Nicaragua dictatorship as their client base (and $156,932.62 in fees warm in their pocket), Reichler and Appelbaum set up a firm of their own.
One of the first actions of the new firm was to contact Reed Brody, a former New York prosecutor who had spent time in Nicaragua in the Sandinista community and whose name had been suggested to Reichler by the activists he met there. Clearly 1984 was going to be a critical year in Congress for the Nicaraguan opposition and the mission that Reichler and Appelbaum had in mind for Mr. Brody was to “document” cases of atrocities and human-rights abuses by the contras, as if gathering “evidence for a legal case.” Accompanied by James Bordelon, Mr. Brody went to Nicaragua in the fall of 1984. When we wrote our article, we were unaware of the testimony of Bayardo Payan and therefore we did not rely on his evidence. We relied instead on Mr. Brody's own words. In the explanatory notes appended to his published report, he states that while in Nicaragua, “Mr. Brody and Mr. Bordelon lived in a house owned by the government. While they were in Managua, Mr. Brody and Mr. Bordelon were furnished office space at the government-funded Comision Nacional de Promocion y Proteccion de los Derechos Humanos.” In subsequent interviews about the report, Mr. Brody has admitted that the Ortega dictatorship also provided him with transportation and staff.
And witnesses, too. According to Gary Moore, a free-lance journalist formerly on the staff of the Atlanta Constitution, Mr. Brody told him that he had worked with a uniformed female employee of the state-security apparatus named Guadalupe, who provided him with witnesses. One of the witnesses Guadalupe provided and Mr. Brody promoted was the celebrated Digna Bareda who was widely featured on network TV in America and Europe as a humble peasant woman who had been helped by the revolution and then had been gang-raped in front of her husband (who himself was allegedly beaten) by a force of marauding contras.
Suspicious of the cases that self-styled human-rights activists like Mr. Brody were making, Gary Moore went to Nicaragua to retrace their footsteps. His own (un-publicized) investigation established that far from being a simple peasant, Digna Bareda was a ten-year veteran of the FSLN (dating to the time when it consisted of only 200 hard-core cadres), while her husband was a decorated member of the state-security police. Her testimony was a tissue of half-truths and lies.
Mr. Brody asserts that “substantial portions” of his report were “independently verified by the New York Times” and groups like Americas Watch. In fact, the Times (and CBS News) made advance agreements to publicize the findings of the verifying team that went to Nicaragua in February 1985. As Kathleen Bertelsen, a member of the team, told Gary Moore: “When we went down there, we had an exclusive arrangement with CBS News and the New York Times that they would get our story while we were down there.” One of the co-leaders of the verifying team was the brother-in-law of a high-ranking Sandinista official and the other members were all people easily identified as Sandinista sympathizers. The group's American-born translator, a two-year resident of the Sandinistas' “new society,” had written a book lauding the indoctrination program waged by the regime under the guise of a “literacy campaign.” Nicaraguan arrangements for the “independent” verification team were made by the Sandinistas' own registered agent in the U.S., Paul Reichler, who met them at the airport in Managua and stayed on the scene to see that everything went all right. Meetings with Sandinista officials were arranged, a government car and driver were provided. The team stayed a week and reinterviewed ten out of the 156 witnesses in the Brody report. No attempt was made to verify the truth of the testimonies themselves.
The publicity the American news media provided for Mr. Brody's unsubstantiated allegations provided the Sandinistas with the victory they had sought. Presented as a petition of independent American citizens concerned about human rights, Mr. Brody's propaganda helped sway enough members of Congress to defeat a pending motion in the House to provide the anti-Sandinista opposition with government funding.
Given the capacity for deceit that this record displays, it is probably superfluous to comment on Mr. Brody's opening slander on us. Just for the record, however, in all our dubious years on the Left, we were never mouthers of anybody's slogans, least of all the totalitarian sympathizers and allies of that “devious and dishonest Left” we wrote about in our article and for whom Reed Brody is such a prominent spokesman today.
__________________ Ecclesiastes 10:2The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.
Last edited by oldbetang; 2nd October 2009 at 09:25 PM.
You're wrong on both accounts. Your perception is warped by your own far-left government and media. Currently, pretty much all US government agencies are biased to the left politically.
So, you see no possibility whatsoever of you being the one with the bias?
Upon what do you base your assumption that I have had my mind warped by propaganda?
Why are you so dead certain you're right and everyone else is wrong? Look at this objectively OB. I don't know what you're doing for a living but remember back to the science classes you probably had as a student. Remember the importance of objective analysis and critical thought. Have you applied that to your political ideology? Have you considered politics from an objective and factual perspective with an eye on not just US politics but domestic politics abroad as well as international and supernational political history?
Yeah, politics are not an exact science. That is true. But there is plenty of data out there which can give a decent basis for an objectively reached conclusion. Obviously I cannot force you to think critically or analytically. And I am not saying that doing so will lead you to the same conclusions I have reached. But I do encourage you to try and think critically and analytically.
I wonder ob, why is it that the argument I meet from the right wing Americans time and time and time again is the same ones? WHO is wrong in their analysis of the American healthcare because they hate America. Socialism is evil and ungodly (with no justification), and of course the attack you just made, that all left wing people are just fools who were duped by some evil left wing conspiracy. Do you have no real arguments? Is your perception of a good basis simply blanket dismissals based on unbelievably arrogant assumptions of superiority? OB, I do wonder what is going on between your ears when you actually and honestly think that everyone who is not as far right wing as you are is a fool. How arrogant is that? Why, you're practically making yourself into a god in your own eyes if you assume that your possition is as infallible as you apparently think it is. No human device is perfect or infallible OB. That goes for any ideology, any system, as well as physical, technological and theoretical constructions. Which naturally includes your own perception. By saying that your position IS infallible and perfect like you are, you're hence also claiming godhood for yourself given the aforementioned premise (that all human devices are fallible and imperfect).
As for the US government being "left wing"... Come on... Do you really mean that? Upon what do you base such a ludicrous statement? Left leaning compared to what? Pinochet? Fascism? Socioeconomic darwinism? Yeah, compared with those I suppose it is slightly left leaning. Compared with Bush's policies sure. But this is like standing on a train going 200km/h and looking at a car going 190km/h (in the same direction and parallell to the train) and saying the car is driving in the opposite direction of the one the train is going in due to the speed difference. It makes no sense whatsoever.
What is left wing about your country's government? What is socialistic or marxistic? And before you say 'universal healthcare' let me counter with another socialistic and market inhibiting restriction you have put on all your citizens since the dawn of the united states: You cannot offer your services as an assassin or a torturer openly in the US. It is illegal and that is a restriction on trade. Clearly a left-leaning, market restricting move. Oh and of course there is more. The nationally controlled armed forces. Again, market control and restriction. Or what about rape, another thing which cannot be sold on the open market. You can't hire someone to rape someone else. Those are restrictions on the market and hence clearly left of a totally free economy. But even so you cannot call those restrictions marxistic, socialistic or even left wing. Unless you're saying that you're considering it from a total extreme right wing position of course.
__________________
Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Matthew 6:24
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"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon."
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Last edited by faith guardian; 3rd October 2009 at 07:58 AM.
So, you see no possibility whatsoever of you being the one with the bias?
Upon what do you base your assumption that I have had my mind warped by propaganda?
Why are you so dead certain you're right and everyone else is wrong? Look at this objectively OB. I don't know what you're doing for a living but remember back to the science classes you probably had as a student. Remember the importance of objective analysis and critical thought. Have you applied that to your political ideology? Have you considered politics from an objective and factual perspective with an eye on not just US politics but domestic politics abroad as well as international and supernational political history?
Yeah, politics are not an exact science. That is true. But there is plenty of data out there which can give a decent basis for an objectively reached conclusion. Obviously I cannot force you to think critically or analytically. And I am not saying that doing so will lead you to the same conclusions I have reached. But I do encourage you to try and think critically and analytically.
I wonder ob, why is it that the argument I meet from the right wing Americans time and time and time again is the same ones? WHO is wrong in their analysis of the American healthcare because they hate America. Socialism is evil and ungodly (with no justification), and of course the attack you just made, that all left wing people are just fools who were duped by some evil left wing conspiracy. Do you have no real arguments? Is your perception of a good basis simply blanket dismissals based on unbelievably arrogant assumptions of superiority? OB, I do wonder what is going on between your ears when you actually and honestly think that everyone who is not as far right wing as you are is a fool. How arrogant is that? Why, you're practically making yourself into a god in your own eyes if you assume that your possition is as infallible as you apparently think it is. No human device is perfect or infallible OB. That goes for any ideology, any system, as well as physical, technological and theoretical constructions. Which naturally includes your own perception. By saying that your position IS infallible and perfect like you are, you're hence also claiming godhood for yourself given the aforementioned premise (that all human devices are fallible and imperfect).
As for the US government being "left wing"... Come on... Do you really mean that? Upon what do you base such a ludicrous statement? Left leaning compared to what? Pinochet? Fascism? Socioeconomic darwinism? Yeah, compared with those I suppose it is slightly left leaning. Compared with Bush's policies sure. But this is like standing on a train going 200km/h and looking at a car going 190km/h (in the same direction and parallell to the train) and saying the car is driving in the opposite direction of the one the train is going in due to the speed difference. It makes no sense whatsoever.
What is left wing about your country's government? What is socialistic or marxistic? And before you say 'universal healthcare' let me counter with another socialistic and market inhibiting restriction you have put on all your citizens since the dawn of the united states: You cannot offer your services as an assassin or a torturer openly in the US. It is illegal and that is a restriction on trade. Clearly a left-leaning, market restricting move. Oh and of course there is more. The nationally controlled armed forces. Again, market control and restriction. Or what about rape, another thing which cannot be sold on the open market. You can't hire someone to rape someone else. Those are restrictions on the market and hence clearly left of a totally free economy. But even so you cannot call those restrictions marxistic, socialistic or even left wing. Unless you're saying that you're considering it from a total extreme right wing position of course.
You're editorializing. You'll excuse me if I don't respond to that in its entirety.
So, you see no possibility whatsoever of you being the one with the bias?
Of course I have a bias. We all do.
Upon what do you base your assumption that I have had my mind warped by propaganda?
I said that your perception is warped, not your mind. I would ask ,what are the determining factors you use in concluding that the US is a very far right country?
Why are you so dead certain you're right and everyone else is wrong? Look at this objectively OB. I don't know what you're doing for a living but remember back to the science classes you probably had as a student. Remember the importance of objective analysis and critical thought. Have you applied that to your political ideology? Have you considered politics from an objective and factual perspective with an eye on not just US politics but domestic politics abroad as well as international and supernational political history?
Yeah, politics are not an exact science. That is true. But there is plenty of data out there which can give a decent basis for an objectively reached conclusion. Obviously I cannot force you to think critically or analytically. And I am not saying that doing so will lead you to the same conclusions I have reached. But I do encourage you to try and think critically and analytically.
Do I detect a smidgen of condescension? I clearly can't be thinking critically and analytically ,because if I were I would be agreeing with you, right? I'm not certain that I'm right and everyone else is wrong. But I know what I know , and if someone wants to show me that I'm wrong then let them do it. Prove to me that I'm wrong. Show me the error of my ways. Give me factual irrefutable information.
I wonder ob, why is it that the argument I meet from the right wing Americans time and time and time again is the same ones? WHO is wrong in their analysis of the American healthcare because they hate America. Socialism is evil and ungodly (with no justification), and of course the attack you just made, that all left wing people are just fools who were duped by some evil left wing conspiracy. Do you have no real arguments? Is your perception of a good basis simply blanket dismissals based on unbelievably arrogant assumptions of superiority? OB, I do wonder what is going on between your ears when you actually and honestly think that everyone who is not as far right wing as you are is a fool. How arrogant is that? Why, you're practically making yourself into a god in your own eyes if you assume that your possition is as infallible as you apparently think it is. No human device is perfect or infallible OB. That goes for any ideology, any system, as well as physical, technological and theoretical constructions. Which naturally includes your own perception. By saying that your position IS infallible and perfect like you are, you're hence also claiming godhood for yourself given the aforementioned premise (that all human devices are fallible and imperfect).
What is left wing about your country's government? What is socialistic or marxistic? And before you say 'universal healthcare' let me counter with another socialistic and market inhibiting restriction you have put on all your citizens since the dawn of the united states: You cannot offer your services as an assassin or a torturer openly in the US. It is illegal and that is a restriction on trade. Clearly a left-leaning, market restricting move. Oh and of course there is more. The nationally controlled armed forces. Again, market control and restriction. Or what about rape, another thing which cannot be sold on the open market. You can't hire someone to rape someone else. Those are restrictions on the market and hence clearly left of a totally free economy. But even so you cannot call those restrictions marxistic, socialistic or even left wing. Unless you're saying that you're considering it from a total extreme right wing position of course
That I'll leave alone, because you seem to be taking your frustration with some on the right out on me. I can't and don't speak for everyone who resides on the right side of the political spectrum. However, I will say that when a government pushes for socialized healthcare, increased government control over private business, redistribution of wealth, Cap and Trade ,and left-wing social causes( like abortion and the gay stuff), then the label of "left-wing" is not such a stretch.
Just for the record, I'm not adamantly opposed to socialized healthcare. In fact, I've got it and it's not that bad.
__________________ Ecclesiastes 10:2The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.
Yes, we do. I didn't know you agreed that this includes you though. I mean, you seem to think anyone who's not agreeing with you has their perceptions warped by some left wing conspiracy.
Originally Posted by oldbetang
I said that your perception is warped, not your mind. I would ask ,what are the determining factors you use in concluding that the US is a very far right country?
Well, it's the only country in the west without a universal healthcare plan for one. Many Americans are more afraid of socialists and socialism than small children are of the boogie-man and for exactly as good reasons. Their aversion for big government, their love for corporations and the level of corporate control are other reasons. The work they are doing for the new american century as well. It's all right wing. Sure, that the current president is pushing for a system which will let public and private healthcare coexist is a step toward the left, but it is not socialistic or left wing. It's just slightly less right wing.
In addition of course there's the history.. The political demands put on the countries who were given the Marshall Aid for example, or of course the toppling of democratically elected governments in all continents and the active support of capitalist despots across the globe. Like Pinochet, Somoza, Douvalier, Noriega, and many more. Then there is the response Obama is getting now for his desire to give the entire American people a healthcare system which can help everyone. They are afraid of it.
Originally Posted by oldbetang
Do I detect a smidgen of condescension? I clearly can't be thinking critically and analytically ,because if I were I would be agreeing with you, right? I'm not certain that I'm right and everyone else is wrong. But I know what I know , and if someone wants to show me that I'm wrong then let them do it. Prove to me that I'm wrong. Show me the error of my ways. Give me factual irrefutable information.
OB, I don't care if you think the same way I do or have exactly the same ideas I do. In fact, I hope you never will because I detest clones.
Now OB, I have provided a plethora of links to statistics and research papers from reputable organizations before. Normally neither you nor any of your fellow right wingers actually address this however. Why should I provide the same info now? I have addressed arguments such as personal freedom, level of democracy, living standards, purchasing power, healthcare quality, crime rates... I have even discussed the effects of capitalism on prostitution and pornography with pure statistical data. And you know what? It's all ignored. So should I spend time getting those sites again? Will you believe anything you read, or are you another one who will just ignore it, or dismiss it as "Left wing propaganda" regardless of source quality?
Originally Posted by oldbetang
That I'll leave alone, because you seem to be taking your frustration with some on the right out on me. I can't and don't speak for everyone who resides on the right side of the political spectrum. However, I will say that when a government pushes for socialized healthcare, increased government control over private business, redistribution of wealth, Cap and Trade ,and left-wing social causes( like abortion and the gay stuff), then the label of "left-wing" is not such a stretch.
OB, yeah, as a Christian I do feel some involvement emotionally for the poor and oppressed. Don't you?
I don't like it when people support a system which currently oppresses millions for the purpose of increasing the profit of an infinitesimally small financial elite and to top it off calls that stuff "Christian". Sure it's better than it was during the industrial revolution... In Europe and the US anyway...
There are many reasons why I want the poor to be seen. If I have and am coming across harshly there are reasons that are not you. And some of them pertain to Nicaragua, and the rest of South America and Africa. Now as I said before feel free to think differently and draw other conclusions. But do refrain from the arrogant assumption that I have a warped perception just because I don't see things your way. Neither did Einstein who was a socialist. Or Desmond Tutu, who's a socialist. Or M. Gandhi, The Dalai Lama, Nelson Mandela, and many more extremely intelligent people. A blanket dismissal of an entire ideology is dangerous and I do not advice it.
To go back to the US and left/right wing... It really is a stretch to call the US left wing. A really far stretch. You can just as easily say that Cuba is right wing because it's allowing tourism and international trade. Things are not that simple. YEah, the US is leaning further to the left now, but is still well within the 'blue' spectrum. To be honest I think it does need to moderate itself. It's debt is climbing fast, it has not been able to handle the economic crisis well at all (nor did they handle the one in the 20s well). In the twenties we saw a recuperation only after certain actions were taken to stop the rampant decay of the economical situation. We can either ignore that and try again, hoping it will work this time or we can learn from what happened before (time and time again), look at how some countries have gotten through the crisis without much harm, and apply the knowledge we get from that.
Originally Posted by oldbetang
Just for the record, I'm not adamantly opposed to socialized healthcare. In fact, I've got it and it's not that bad.
Good. I hope you actually check some numbers on that before you support privatized healthcare. The system the US has is likely inferior to your own, depending on where you live of course. If it's in the west I'm willing to bet your system is better than the US (for the entire population, not the richest 1%)
__________________
Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Matthew 6:24
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"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon."
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You see it as revisionism because it doesn't match up with what your Marxist idols have been spoon feeding you. That's your problem, not mine.
I am not a Marxist and I don't have Marxist idols.
Even a cursory understanding of the late 20th century history of places like Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Bolivia, Colombia, Argentina, Brazil, etc. is more than sufficient to understand just how disgusting your claims about US action towards the rest of the Americas is.
Originally Posted by oldbetang
The US never had a bloody approach to thwart attempts at democratization in South America.
So again - This combination of blatant mis-truth and unwillingness to admit historical fact is almost akin to holocaust denial.
Last edited by exotic walrus; 6th October 2009 at 12:22 AM.
Yeah the majority of the international community are wrong and blogs from the wealthy sector of Honduran society are right.
Actually, I've been hearing from middle class Hondurans and US expats. The majority of Hondurans do not support the return of Mel.
I'm not a right wing anything. I think the US overthrew the governments of Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Haiti, and tried to do it in Nicuragua and Venezuela in 2002. I think US foreign policy is one sided and unfair in most cases.
But I think Chavez and his little cult of personality in Morales, Correa, and Zelaya can do as much harm. I don't think any of them gives a rat's rear end about the people (with the possible exception of Correa. He's hard to figure out) they govern, and provoke instability through class warfare to keep them in power.
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"I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a ____. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said ____ than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night."- Tony Campolo
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