| Mariology & Hagiography The forum to discuss the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus as well as the theology involving Saints. |
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View Poll Results: Did Mary have children after Jesus was born | |
Yes, I/we believe Mary had children after Jesus was born
|     | 47 | 46.53% | |
No. I/we believe she did not have children after Jesus
|    | 39 | 38.61% | |
I am not sure
|    | 9 | 8.91% | |
Does it matter?
|    | 17 | 16.83% |
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21st November 2009, 11:21 PM
| | Once a newbie
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Reps: 18,271,785,612,568,524 (power: 18,271,785,612,574) | | Originally Posted by Thekla  Good enough 
(Do translations tend to place the comma's with the and/kai or add an extra comma between the kai/and conjunction ?)
Since you say "tend to", what would be the conclusion? What would be the point?
__________________
Mt. 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:9-10 |
21st November 2009, 11:23 PM
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Reps: 133,997,595,913,332,672 (power: 133,997,595,913,348) | | Originally Posted by Standing Up If Joseph had other children from a previous marriage, why aren't they mentioned? All grown up with their own families?
As they would be young, and Mary pregnant (possibly near giving birth), I think it not unlikely that the adelphoi are older.
My other post crossed your reply. What do you make of sisters named the same, in this case, Mary?
Hope this doesn't disappoint, but without the sort of "narrowing" I've talked about, its truly hard to say.
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dir="ltr"> I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen.  |
21st November 2009, 11:25 PM
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Reps: 133,997,595,913,332,672 (power: 133,997,595,913,348) | | Originally Posted by Standing Up Since you say "tend to", what would be the conclusion? What would be the point?
I haven't surveyed the translations, but it would seem that the "and/kai" provide the breaks in the series (2 commas).
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dir="ltr"> I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen. |
21st November 2009, 11:28 PM
| | Once a newbie
53
| | Join Date: 3rd September 2008 Location: StandingUpCF@gmail.com
Posts: 4,889
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Reps: 18,271,785,612,568,524 (power: 18,271,785,612,574) | | Originally Posted by Thekla As they would be young, and Mary pregnant (possibly near giving birth), I think it not unlikely that the adelphoi are older.
Hope this doesn't disappoint, but without the sort of "narrowing" I've talked about, its truly hard to say.
Joseph's other children young? I thought EO thought he was something like 80 when betrothed to Mary?
Two sisters named Mary. Is there another bibilical example of two sisters or two brothers haveing the exact same name?
__________________
Mt. 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:9-10 |
21st November 2009, 11:52 PM
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Reps: 133,997,595,913,332,672 (power: 133,997,595,913,348) | | Originally Posted by Standing Up Joseph's other children young? I thought EO thought he was something like 80 when betrothed to Mary?
Actually, I'm trying to do an analysis based on the text and child-bearing patterns (between sibling birth span).
If the adelphoi are younger than Jesus, some are quite young and Mary is either pregnant or one of the adelphoi is newborn - a few months old.
If the adelphoi are older than Jesus, they are more independent (and could be absent or with the relatives and/or friends).
Two sisters named Mary. Is there another bibilical example of two sisters or two brothers haveing the exact same name?
Not that I know of.
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dir="ltr"> I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen. |
22nd November 2009, 12:23 AM
| | Once a newbie
53
| | Join Date: 3rd September 2008 Location: StandingUpCF@gmail.com
Posts: 4,889
Blessings: 26,054
Reps: 18,271,785,612,568,524 (power: 18,271,785,612,574) | | Originally Posted by Thekla Actually, I'm trying to do an analysis based on the text and child-bearing patterns (between sibling birth span).
If the adelphoi are younger than Jesus, some are quite young and Mary is either pregnant or one of the adelphoi is newborn - a few months old.
If the adelphoi are older than Jesus, they are more independent (and could be absent or with the relatives and/or friends).
Not that I know of.
You're open to the idea that Mary may be pregnant or had other children besides Jesus?! As in all that matters is the truth.
__________________
Mt. 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:9-10 |
22nd November 2009, 12:56 AM
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Posts: 13,194
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Reps: 133,997,595,913,332,672 (power: 133,997,595,913,348) | | Originally Posted by Standing Up You're open to the idea that Mary may be pregnant or had other children besides Jesus?! As in all that matters is the truth.
I know what I believe.
I am interested in what the text actually says -- in fact, this is something I have researched. And, what I found does not challenge the ever-virginity. The evidence swings more toward that, but it does require a bit more work to find. Note, for example that the male children of Klopas/Alphaeus have the same names. The sister of Mary, Mary, is the wife of Klopas. These three sons of Mary and Klopas have the same names as three of the adelphoi of Jesus.
There are other things as well, but again they are not explicit.
In the above example, (the Luke passages), the adelphoi are not mentioned. Frankly, they don't have to be mentioned. OTOH, if they are younger there would be several children with a pregnant or with new infant Mary, and Joseph. If they are older, they could be with "relatives" (where Mary and Joseph assumed Jesus was) or old enough to be on their own.
If one wants to rely on what is explicitly stated in the Bible, there really is nothing conclusive. So, to some extent, anything that one thinks about the adelphoi of Jesus -- other than the most general 'could be any number of relationships possible' -- any belief in a narrow meaning of adelphoi relies on tradition/Tradition (including the tradition/Tradition that they were children of Mary).
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dir="ltr"> I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen. |
22nd November 2009, 01:23 AM
| | Junior Member
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Reps: 4,187,493,300,728,776 (power: 4,187,493,300,731) | | Originally Posted by bbbbbbb Please permit to briefly explore the implications of your statement. If these individuals were not the brothers and sisters of Jesus (as is commonly understood in English) but some form of relatives who do not share the same mother as Jesus, then it would be likely that there were more of them in reality. I think it is a safe assumption that family size in the first century was typically larger than at present. If Joseph and Mary had siblings who had typical families, Jesus would have had a slew of half-cousins. Thus, if Mary was with some of these half-cousins, do you not think that at least one of the three writers would have said that she was with some of his adelphoi? As it is, the implication is that His brothers and sisters (the entire group) were there, which would not be at all unreasonable if they were younger siblings.
It's well known what assumptions make us.
Yes, surely the numbers of births per mother back then were greater than now, even allowing for the greater number of women who died in childbirth. But the number of babies born who survived into adulthood could be low, perhaps no higher than the number today who do. Thus your arguments fail that the number of Jesus's adult cousins had to be huge.
What on earth do you mean by "half-cousins"? First cousins who weren't double first cousins, like 99% are not? |
22nd November 2009, 02:28 AM
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 | | Join Date: 28th November 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Reps: 2,557,696,988,053,378 (power: 2,557,696,988,065) | | Originally Posted by Standing Up The default understanding, the first definition, of sister is sister.
You said Perseus said the second definition is kinswoman. Okay. Per the Bible, kinswoman means sister.
As per Liddell and Scott (the Perseus reference) the first definition of "αδελφή" is "sister" which is further clarified as "homopatria". As has been demonstrated, "homopatria" includes common father, common grandfather, etc. Thus, although not explicitly defined, it includes "aunt-niece" and "cousin" relationships. The fact that Plato uses the term "αδελφή" to describe just such a relationship proves that Thayer's , Vine's and Strong's are not exhaustive references You folks make the claim that Jesus had no sisters by Mary. You've been shown, however, that Thayers, Vines, Strongs, Perseus, and now Scripture say otherwise.
Your repeating of this statement does not make it so. All you have demonstrated is the limitations of your references. It is your Church that makes the claim. Maybe they have something more than what you've presented?
Continuity in language, geography, history, culture and belief, none of which have the authors of Thayer's, Vine's or Strong's. Seriously, what have you got that even comes close? Otherwise, let's be done with this issue. Be united, as it were, of one mind at least on what seems crystal clear.
We are of one mind with the Church which has existed since Pentecost. Your "tradition" is relatively recent so you are hardly in a position to take the academic high ground.
John |
22nd November 2009, 03:10 AM
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Reps: 2,557,696,988,053,378 (power: 2,557,696,988,065) | | Originally Posted by Sphinx777
I dislike such images. John the Forerunner was only 6 months older than Jesus and both the Church and scripture only record their meeting twice, once while both were still in the womb and the second time at Jesus' baptism.
John | | |
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