| Mariology & Hagiography The forum to discuss the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus as well as the theology involving Saints. | |
View Poll Results: Did Mary have children after Jesus was born | |
Yes, I/we believe Mary had children after Jesus was born
|    | 43 | 45.74% | |
No. I/we believe she did not have children after Jesus
|    | 36 | 38.30% | |
I am not sure
|    | 8 | 8.51% | |
Does it matter?
|    | 15 | 15.96% |  | | 
6th November 2009, 09:37 AM
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Reps: 37,194,621,858,792 (power: 37,194,621,872) | | Originally Posted by Thekla As for the use in English of the word "until":
when a parent says to their children, "Be well behaved until I return.", is it required of the children by the parent to misbehave after the parent returns ?
Boy, this brings back some memories.
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Last edited by lionroar0; 7th November 2009 at 04:31 PM.
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7th November 2009, 07:21 AM
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Reps: 351,258,369,331,887 (power: 351,258,369,344) | | | until sets a point and time. So Mary was kept a virgin until the birth of Christ..Point and time.
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth; You have set Your glory above the heavens! Psa 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings, You have ordained strength, because of the ones distressing You, to cause the enemy and the avenger to cease. Psa 8:3 When I look upon Your heavens, the work of Your fingers: the moon and the stars which You have fixed; Psa 8:4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? Psa 8:5 For You have made him lack a little from God; and have crowned him with glory and honor. Psa 8:6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all under his feet: Psa 8:7 all flocks and oxen, and also the animals of the field, Psa 8:8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, all that pass through the sea. Psa 8:9 O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth! | 
7th November 2009, 10:15 AM
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Reps: 37,194,621,858,792 (power: 37,194,621,872) | | Originally Posted by MamaZ until sets a point and time. So Mary was kept a virgin until the birth of Christ..Point and time.
Yes and no. It points to the time that she was a virgin but it does not point to a future time when she was not a virgin.
Like Theklas examples of telling kids when to behave.
"Behave until I come home." Does not point to a time where a child can misbehave after a parent comes home.
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7th November 2009, 05:49 PM
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Reps: 170,165,752,186,543 (power: 170,165,752,196) | | Originally Posted by lionroar0 Yes and no. It points to the time that she was a virgin but it does not point to a future time when she was not a virgin.
Like Theklas examples of telling kids when to behave.
"Behave until I come home." Does not point to a time where a child can misbehave after a parent comes home.
there's a big difference here.
parents always expect there kids to behave. being a virgin was never an expectation placed on Mary. therefor, "until" Jesus was born, would logically mean that they waited for that time to come before having sex.
Peace.
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7th November 2009, 07:21 PM
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Reps: 833,390,630,748,051 (power: 833,390,630,755) | | Originally Posted by shinbits there's a big difference here.
parents always expect there kids to behave. being a virgin was never an expectation placed on Mary. therefor, "until" Jesus was born, would logically mean that they waited for that time to come before having sex.
Peace.
It wasn't an expectation placed on her either by anybody (human anyway...I'm guessing God chose her for this unique place in the giving birth to Our Salvation, Christ). It was her CHOICE. She CHOSE to be celebate the rest of her life. I don't know if those who aren't of the ancient church(es) can understand this. It seems they have a problem understanding being chaste through a monastic type of life. It's easy to see that people voluntarily do this since we've got monasteries (male and female ones) all over the world. So, why is it so hard to believe that Mary wanted to be a virgin the rest of her life? Why are there always questions like these: "Why can't Mary have sex with her husband? Why? What's wrong with marriage? It's holy?" And so on....Because she grew up dedicated to God and in a family of pious people (apparently a lineage of priests, according to OUSA), and she intended on being celebate for life. I don't see the problem. When it was first told to me about her ever-virginity, my response was, "Ok." Why is that such a stumbling block for people here?
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8th November 2009, 03:46 AM
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Reps: 170,165,752,186,543 (power: 170,165,752,196) | | Originally Posted by Dorothea It wasn't an expectation placed on her either by anybody (human anyway...I'm guessing God chose her for this unique place in the giving birth to Our Salvation, Christ). It was her CHOICE. She CHOSE to be celebate the rest of her life.
Where does the Bible say God "chose" Mary for this "purpose"?
Where does the Bible say Mary "chose" this? I don't know if those who aren't of the ancient church(es) can understand this. It seems they have a problem understanding being chaste through a monastic type of life.
It's not hard to understand why people would chose such a way of life. It's simply that this doctrine concerning Mary is NOT in the Bible. Moreover, there's (much) more reason to believe, based on Biblical Scripture, that she did have sex. That being the case, it would be a Biblical error to think she remained a virgin forever.
That's all.
__________________ Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is praise worthy--think of these things. | 
8th November 2009, 09:24 AM
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Reps: 1,228,024,881,662,254 (power: 1,228,024,881,676) | | Originally Posted by shinbits there's a big difference here.
parents always expect there kids to behave. being a virgin was never an expectation placed on Mary. therefor, "until" Jesus was born, would logically mean that they waited for that time to come before having sex.
Peace.
Grammatically and logically, "until" does not require a reversal of condition/action. The word refers to a particular span of time.
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. dir="ltr"> I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen. | 
8th November 2009, 09:28 AM
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Reps: 1,228,024,881,662,254 (power: 1,228,024,881,676) | | Originally Posted by shinbits
It's not hard to understand why people would chose such a way of life. It's simply that this doctrine concerning Mary is NOT in the Bible. Moreover, there's (much) more reason to believe, based on Biblical Scripture, that she did have sex. That being the case, it would be a Biblical error to think she remained a virgin forever.
That's all.
If the claim is made that the doctrine cannot be Biblically supported, then absent Biblical evidence, it cannot be said that the opposite position is Biblical.
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. dir="ltr"> I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen. | 
8th November 2009, 02:39 PM
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Reps: 170,165,752,186,543 (power: 170,165,752,196) | | Originally Posted by Thekla Grammatically and logically, "until" does not require a reversal of condition/action. The word refers to a particular span of time.
"Until" in of itself doesn't reverse condition/action. It's the situation the causes the word to do so.
Since there's no reason given as to why Mary would remain a virgin, "until she gave birth" is one of those situations.
__________________ Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is praise worthy--think of these things. | 
8th November 2009, 02:41 PM
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| | Join Date: 5th December 2005 Location: New York
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Reps: 170,165,752,186,543 (power: 170,165,752,196) | | Originally Posted by Thekla If the claim is made that the doctrine cannot be Biblically supported, then absent Biblical evidence, it cannot be said that the opposite position is Biblical.
Unless the opposite position (Mary had sex) has support, which it does.
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