| Mariology & Hagiography The forum to discuss the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus as well as the theology involving Saints. |
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View Poll Results: Did Mary have children after Jesus was born | |
Yes, I/we believe Mary had children after Jesus was born
|     | 86 | 47.51% | |
No. I/we believe she did not have children after Jesus
|    | 72 | 39.78% | |
I am not sure
|    | 17 | 9.39% | |
Does it matter?
|    | 25 | 13.81% |
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6th November 2009, 09:37 AM
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Reps: 20,294,279,793,673,364 (power: 20,294,279,793,690) | | Originally Posted by Thekla  As for the use in English of the word "until":
when a parent says to their children, "Be well behaved until I return.", is it required of the children by the parent to misbehave after the parent returns ?
Boy, this brings back some memories. 
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Last edited by lionroar0; 7th November 2009 at 04:31 PM.
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7th November 2009, 07:21 AM
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Reps: 996,768,363,525,666,816 (power: 996,768,363,525,684) | | | until sets a point and time. So Mary was kept a virgin until the birth of Christ..Point and time.
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7th November 2009, 10:15 AM
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Reps: 20,294,279,793,673,364 (power: 20,294,279,793,690) | | Originally Posted by MamaZ until sets a point and time. So Mary was kept a virgin until the birth of Christ..Point and time.
Yes and no. It points to the time that she was a virgin but it does not point to a future time when she was not a virgin.
Like Theklas examples of telling kids when to behave.
"Behave until I come home." Does not point to a time where a child can misbehave after a parent comes home.
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7th November 2009, 05:49 PM
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Reps: 201,770,799,312,244,992 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by lionroar0 Yes and no. It points to the time that she was a virgin but it does not point to a future time when she was not a virgin.
Like Theklas examples of telling kids when to behave.
"Behave until I come home." Does not point to a time where a child can misbehave after a parent comes home.
there's a big difference here.
parents always expect there kids to behave. being a virgin was never an expectation placed on Mary. therefor, "until" Jesus was born, would logically mean that they waited for that time to come before having sex.
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7th November 2009, 07:21 PM
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Reps: 2,960,896,560,942,746,624 (power: 2,960,896,560,942,764) | | Originally Posted by shinbits there's a big difference here.
parents always expect there kids to behave. being a virgin was never an expectation placed on Mary. therefor, "until" Jesus was born, would logically mean that they waited for that time to come before having sex.
Peace.
It wasn't an expectation placed on her either by anybody (human anyway...I'm guessing God chose her for this unique place in the giving birth to Our Salvation, Christ). It was her CHOICE. She CHOSE to be celebate the rest of her life. I don't know if those who aren't of the ancient church(es) can understand this. It seems they have a problem understanding being chaste through a monastic type of life. It's easy to see that people voluntarily do this since we've got monasteries (male and female ones) all over the world. So, why is it so hard to believe that Mary wanted to be a virgin the rest of her life? Why are there always questions like these: "Why can't Mary have sex with her husband? Why? What's wrong with marriage? It's holy?" And so on....Because she grew up dedicated to God and in a family of pious people (apparently a lineage of priests, according to OUSA), and she intended on being celebate for life. I don't see the problem. When it was first told to me about her ever-virginity, my response was, "Ok." Why is that such a stumbling block for people here?
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8th November 2009, 03:46 AM
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Reps: 201,770,799,312,244,992 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Dorothea It wasn't an expectation placed on her either by anybody (human anyway...I'm guessing God chose her for this unique place in the giving birth to Our Salvation, Christ). It was her CHOICE. She CHOSE to be celebate the rest of her life.
Where does the Bible say God "chose" Mary for this "purpose"?
Where does the Bible say Mary "chose" this? I don't know if those who aren't of the ancient church(es) can understand this. It seems they have a problem understanding being chaste through a monastic type of life.
It's not hard to understand why people would chose such a way of life. It's simply that this doctrine concerning Mary is NOT in the Bible. Moreover, there's (much) more reason to believe, based on Biblical Scripture, that she did have sex. That being the case, it would be a Biblical error to think she remained a virgin forever.
That's all. |
8th November 2009, 09:24 AM
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Reps: 5,693,469,622,461,727,744 (power: 5,693,469,622,461,752) | | Originally Posted by shinbits there's a big difference here.
parents always expect there kids to behave. being a virgin was never an expectation placed on Mary. therefor, "until" Jesus was born, would logically mean that they waited for that time to come before having sex.
Peace.
Grammatically and logically, "until" does not require a reversal of condition/action. The word refers to a particular span of time.
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8th November 2009, 09:28 AM
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Reps: 5,693,469,622,461,727,744 (power: 5,693,469,622,461,752) | | Originally Posted by shinbits
It's not hard to understand why people would chose such a way of life. It's simply that this doctrine concerning Mary is NOT in the Bible. Moreover, there's (much) more reason to believe, based on Biblical Scripture, that she did have sex. That being the case, it would be a Biblical error to think she remained a virgin forever.
That's all.
If the claim is made that the doctrine cannot be Biblically supported, then absent Biblical evidence, it cannot be said that the opposite position is Biblical.
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8th November 2009, 02:39 PM
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Reps: 201,770,799,312,244,992 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Thekla Grammatically and logically, "until" does not require a reversal of condition/action. The word refers to a particular span of time.
"Until" in of itself doesn't reverse condition/action. It's the situation the causes the word to do so.
Since there's no reason given as to why Mary would remain a virgin, "until she gave birth" is one of those situations. |
8th November 2009, 02:41 PM
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Reps: 201,770,799,312,244,992 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Thekla If the claim is made that the doctrine cannot be Biblically supported, then absent Biblical evidence, it cannot be said that the opposite position is Biblical.
Unless the opposite position (Mary had sex) has support, which it does. | | |
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