| Mariology & Hagiography The forum to discuss the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus as well as the theology involving Saints. |
|
View Poll Results: Did Mary have children after Jesus was born | |
Yes, I/we believe Mary had children after Jesus was born
|     | 86 | 47.51% | |
No. I/we believe she did not have children after Jesus
|    | 72 | 39.78% | |
I am not sure
|    | 17 | 9.39% | |
Does it matter?
|    | 25 | 13.81% |
 | | 
5th November 2009, 01:20 AM
|  | Senior Veteran
46     
 | | Join Date: 28th November 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 6,149
Blessings: 155,115
Reps: 105,291,347,172,269,648 (power: 105,291,347,172,284) | | Originally Posted by daydreamergurl15  Matthew 1:24-25
Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.
Since you do not know Greek, you don't understand that the " till" in Greek does not necessarily indicate a subsequent change in situation. All Matthew is stating in his Gospel is that Jesus was not conceived through a sexual encounter between Joseph and Mary. That is all. He is not suggesting that after Jesus was born, Joseph and Mary had sexual relations. Not only would it be completely superflouous to the Gospel message, it would be giving inappropriate private details of their relationship. If you study the Gospels you will soon recognise that there is virtually no unnecessary information nor are they written in a wordy or pompous style. The language used is very succinct and efficient, the above verse being a perfect example. I don't believe there is a more efficient way in which Matthew could have written that Jesus was not born of a sexual union between Joseph and Mary. It might be an interesting exercise for all the Greek speakers to try and produce a more efficient text, but I don't believe it can be done The Greek word that everyone is throwing around "adelphos" means EITHER brother and sister in the literal sense or brother and sister in the spiritual sense, and you determine which, by the context that word is used, and if you read the context of where it call Christ's brother, it takes away the idea that the word "brother" means disciple. Why? Well go ahead and read Mark 6:1-6, the people that would have known Christ the most, would be the Nazarenes who grew up with Him, and it is they who name His brothers. They specifically said in verse 3: "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him." And Jesus responded in verse 4 as saying "And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household." Please be aware that we are told that Jesus was preaching on the Sabbath day in the Synagogue and His disciples were with Him, but it was not their name that the person spoke of when they named His brothers.
What you seem to fail to appreciate is that in the Hebrew culture there is no distinction between "blood brother", "half brother" and "step brother". All would simply be called "brother", thus any children of Joseph by his former (now deceased) wife would not be referred to as anything other than Jesus' brothers.
You are probably not aware, but the ancient tradition of the Church has Joseph, Mary and the infant Jesus accompanied by young James on their flight into Egypt. This understanding is at least as old as the New Testament Canon and has never been declared as false. And the word for cousin in Greek is "anepsios" and that is not what was said in those verses.
Mary is of the tribe of David while Elizabeth is of the Levite tribe, so clearly the word "cousin" is being used even more broadly than "brother". Isn't it interested, In the New Testament, some are called brothers and sisters, Peter and Andrew, James the son of Zebedee and John, Mary and Martha, yet we never question where it means brother or sister in the spiritual sense, but once the scripture tell us that Jesus had brothers and sisters, all of a sudden, it's a big deal, and that word in the context, does really mean what it says it does. Interesting, isn't it.
Are you aware that the mother of James and John, Salome, is one of Joseph's daughters? Doesn't it now make more sense that only a big sister would have the balls to ask of her little brother that her two sons sit at His right and left hand in His kingdom? Does it have to say that "Mary had more children from Joseph"? Could it not say and then imply that when Jesus had brothers and sisters, they were His Mother's and Joseph's kids. For we are not told that she remarried, or that she had kids from another man, so why then when they speak of her children, should I not assume that they are from Joseph.
Even though Mary was betrothed to Joseph and could rightfully be called the mother of his existing children, the bible only calls her the mother of Jesus. And the sheer fact that we know that He had brothers and sisters, already implies that she had sex after she gave birth to Christ. Again, so does Matthew 1:24-25.
As stated above, Hebrew culture does not distinguish between "half", "step" and "full" brother so they are not necessarily implied to be Mary's children, and your interpretation of Matthew 1:24-25 requires that Matthew be divulging unnecessary private knowledge in a text that is remarkably devoid of any extraneous text or information.
John |
5th November 2009, 03:13 AM
|  | ICXC NIKA
  
| | Join Date: 3rd April 2007 Location: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 19,817
Blessings: 69,905,114
Reps: 5,693,469,622,461,727,744 (power: 5,693,469,622,461,752) | | | Hi ...
just stopping in to reiterate that adelphos is used in the Bible to refer to (among other things) a nephew. It is used of Herod and his step-brother (that they are children of a different mother is not mentioned in scripture, but is historically known). Its actual use is in Greek is quite broad.
To read the term "adelphos" as only meaning sibling is to apply the thinking of men to the words of scripture; it is "reading into" the text.
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> " ... let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole lives to Christ our God." |
5th November 2009, 04:11 AM
| | ICXC NIKA
| | Join Date: 3rd April 2007 Location: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 19,817
Blessings: 69,905,114
Reps: 5,693,469,622,461,727,744 (power: 5,693,469,622,461,752) | | | As for the use in English of the word "until":
when a parent says to their children, "Be well behaved until I return.", is it required of the children by the parent to misbehave after the parent returns ?
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> " ... let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole lives to Christ our God." |
5th November 2009, 04:38 PM
| | On and on
55  
| | Join Date: 3rd September 2008 Location: Around about
Posts: 14,040
Blessings: 20,262,046
Reps: 3,070,193,490,385,677,824 (power: 3,070,193,490,385,696) | | | The word for brothers may mean uncle, brother, etc.
The problem is that the Greek word for sister means only physical or spiritual sister. This is why Mary is Elizabeth's cousin, not sister.
Thayer's, Vines, Strong's, the other in-depth lexicon mentioned elsewhere all agree.
__________________
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Cor. 15:3-4) |
5th November 2009, 05:01 PM
| | ICXC NIKA
| | Join Date: 3rd April 2007 Location: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 19,817
Blessings: 69,905,114
Reps: 5,693,469,622,461,727,744 (power: 5,693,469,622,461,752) | | Originally Posted by Standing Up The word for brothers may mean uncle, brother, etc.
The problem is that the Greek word for sister means only physical or spiritual sister. This is why Mary is Elizabeth's cousin, not sister.
Thayer's, Vines, Strong's, the other in-depth lexicon mentioned elsewhere all agree.
It too is broader (as it shares a meaning, but not a gender, with adelphos).
For example, it is also used for step-sister (Plato), wife (LXX), poss. in-law (NT).
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> " ... let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole lives to Christ our God." |
5th November 2009, 06:55 PM
| | ICXC NIKA
| | Join Date: 3rd April 2007 Location: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 19,817
Blessings: 69,905,114
Reps: 5,693,469,622,461,727,744 (power: 5,693,469,622,461,752) | | Here is a more complete definition:
adelph-ê , hê, fem. of adelphos, - A.sister, Trag., E Fr.866, etc.; homopatria a. Men.Georg.12 , cf. PTeb.320.5 (ii A.D.): Ion. adelph-eê , Hdt.2.56, al.; Ep. adelph-eiê , Q.S.1.30; Dor. adelph-ea , Pi.N.7.4, and in lyr, passages of Trag., S.OT160, OC535.
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> " ... let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole lives to Christ our God." |
5th November 2009, 06:55 PM
| | ICXC NIKA
| | Join Date: 3rd April 2007 Location: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 19,817
Blessings: 69,905,114
Reps: 5,693,469,622,461,727,744 (power: 5,693,469,622,461,752) | | | Whoops !
a double ...
so I'll edit to add: note that the first definition is homopatria (same father)
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> " ... let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole lives to Christ our God." |
5th November 2009, 11:21 PM
| | Senior Veteran
46
| | Join Date: 28th November 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 6,149
Blessings: 155,115
Reps: 105,291,347,172,269,648 (power: 105,291,347,172,284) | | Originally Posted by Standing Up The word for brothers may mean uncle, brother, etc.
The problem is that the Greek word for sister means only physical or spiritual sister. This is why Mary is Elizabeth's cousin, not sister.
Thayer's, Vines, Strong's, the other in-depth lexicon mentioned elsewhere all agree.
I believe that these three lexicons all predate the papyrii discoveries which have since reshaped the academic understanding of Koine Greek, but something else you seem to be missing. "Brother" and "sister" are the same word in Greek, only the gender changes, but in a strongly patristic culture it is perfectly understandable that there will be much greater examples of the masculine form of the word than the feminine, so naturally you will find a broader range of meanings in texts using the masculine form simply because it is used more often.
John |
6th November 2009, 02:55 AM
| | Junior Member
69  
| | Join Date: 22nd July 2007 Location: California
Posts: 1,038
Blessings: 143,042
Reps: 13,587,832,172,079,916 (power: 13,587,832,172,085) | | Originally Posted by Thekla Hi ...
just stopping in to reiterate that adelphos is used in the Bible to refer to (among other things) a nephew. It is used of Herod and his step-brother (that they are children of a different mother is not mentioned in scripture, but is historically known). Its actual use is in Greek is quite broad.
To read the term "adelphos" as only meaning sibling is to apply the thinking of men to the words of scripture; it is "reading into" the text.
Apparently you meant, "Herod and his half-brother", having the same father (I assume) and a different mother.
And the use in Aramaic is broader than in Greek. |
6th November 2009, 09:10 AM
| | ICXC NIKA
| | Join Date: 3rd April 2007 Location: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 19,817
Blessings: 69,905,114
Reps: 5,693,469,622,461,727,744 (power: 5,693,469,622,461,752) | | Originally Posted by Korah Apparently you meant, "Herod and his half-brother", having the same father (I assume) and a different mother.
And the use in Aramaic is broader than in Greek.
Yes I did 
Thank-you !
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
dir="ltr"> " ... let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole lives to Christ our God." | | |
| Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes |  Linear Mode |
| | |
