How can I find spiritual awareness?

losthope · #31 12th September 2009, 06:29 PM

Reply to aiki

I believe the Bible teaches that the "spiritual awareness" of those who are not truly born again is merely an imitation of the real thing. But perhaps "awareness" isn't the best term to use. I used it mainly because it was a term you had used, though I think a better way of describing what I mean is "life." I think people can be aware that there is a spiritual dimension that exists to life, but their experience of that dimension in its fullest, deepest sense - in the way God describes in His Word - is not possible apart from God's regenerating work in a person's life. No matter how seriously or sincerely someone may approach the matter of their own "spirituality," without God's power bringing them alive spiritually, all they are doing, essentially, is going through the motions. They may meditate, and engage in ascetic practices, and fool about with crystals, but all of this stuff, in the end, is just dead ritual.

You do have some spiritual awareness. That you are on this forum writing about your lack of it is testament to this fact. You are aware, at least, that there is a spiritual life that you are without.
I agree that I am aware that there is a spiritual dimension to life that I am without. But I do not have spiritual awareness. My only knowledge of the spiritual dimension to life is what people tell me about it. For me there is no spiritual dimension. It is just something that I have heard about.

If it "made no difference" to you, then obviously you weren't truly born again. If the Holy Spirit of the God of the Universe really comes to reside within you, you cannot be the same. This has been my experience and the experience of countless other genuine Christians. This is also the teaching of the Word of God. God's Spirit necessarily has a transforming effect upon the believer; change is inevitable, if His Spirit truly lives within a person.
I agree with your conclusion that I was not truly born again. However, in 1974 I believed that I was born again, and I trusted that I was born again. Until I recognised that I really was the same and started to realise that the Holy Spirit had not come to reside in me.

What do you think "spiritual awareness" should be, exactly? As I pointed out above, you are aware of a spiritual life that God offers...

In what, precisely, did you have faith?

I had faith that God had heard and answered my prayer for forgiveness and asking God to take charge of my life. I held onto that faith for almost two years, until it became absolutely certain that nothing had happened.

It sounded to me like you were saying that you had tried these things in an effort to connect with God. Now, however, it sounds as those you were merely giving a list of things you expect Christians would tell you are necessary for spiritual life. So, which is it? Did you do the things you described in an attempt to find God? Or was your list merely what you expected Christians would tell you to do to find Him?

The list was mostly of things that I did when I (thought I) was a Christian. I did not do them in an attempt to find God. I did them because they were the things that Christians do. I listed them in case someone would suggest that if I did one or more of them then I would certainly find God.

Simple phrases to write, but not so simple to do. Just from what you've written so far it seems to me that you haven't actually believed you were saved. Many people expect that upon being saved there will be some ecstatic moment, or some sudden, profound sense of an inward change. But this isn't what the Bible promises anyone. Believing is an act of the will - or it should be. Christians are to stand upon the truth of the Word of God and nothing else. Neither feelings, nor experience are the basis for Christian life and faith. Only the Word of God stands sure and is the foundation upon which our faith in God finally rests. Expecting and desiring some "spiritual awareness" as proof of what God says is true is to not trust His Word. God intends that if all you have as the basis for your faith is His Word, that you will trust it nonetheless.
I can assure you that in 1974 I really did believe that I was saved. What I believe, or conjecture, now is very different from the way I thought and acted back then. When I first asked God into my life (I am trying to avoid saying “when I first became a Christian”, because you, like me, doubt that I ever did become a Christian) I was not necessarily expecting to feel different immediately, or to be aware of some inward change or anything like that. I am aware that some people do experience these things immediately, but that for other people the change is more gradual. However, I was expecting something to happen eventually. It was when months went by and still nothing happened that I started to have doubts.
There are some people who can accept that the Bible is true, and from that they make a decision to step out in faith and find God. I am unable and unwilling to do that. It may be that after God starts to work in me, I could believe that the Bible is totally true. But not the other way round. To me, it would be putting my trust in a book rather than putting my trust in God. You may see it differently, but that is how I see it. Please do not ask me to have faith in a book before I have faith in God. Because unless I know God, my trust in the Bible will be worth nothing. God will still say to me,” depart from me because I do not know you.”

You seem to be having feelings about your lack of "spiritual awareness"...
Is there something wrong with a "standard Christian response"?

There is nothing whatever wrong with a “standard Christian response”. I had not intended to give that impression.

Yes, actually, it has. God has revealed Himself to you and to all people: First and foremost in His Word and then also through what He has made. As far as God is concerned, in these two things you have all the revelation of Him that you need. Now, you may say, "It isn't enough." Well, God says it is. What will you choose to believe? Yourself or Him? The Christian life is, at its core, choosing, in spite of what you may feel or think, to believe God.
As I wrote above, I am not in a position where I can believe the Bible in the way that you can. As for revelation of God’s creation, I cannot see it that way. This is another area where having some spiritual awareness might have helped me to see wonder in creation. But for me, it is simply there. Nothing special.

If you asked sincerely, then God's Word says you are forgiven. If you "have no idea" that you are really forgiven, then your problem isn't with actually being forgiven, but of taking God at His Word. He said it; you believe it. Its that simple (and yet, not so simple!)
I asked as sincerely as I was able to ask, given that I did not have any particular awareness of sin or the need of a saviour for my sins to be forgiven. And I believed sincerely that I was saved. Once again I have to say that my lack of awareness of being a sinner is due to a lack of spiritual awareness, because the Bible tells us that it is the Holy Spirit that brings a conviction of sin. Because I have no awareness of the Holy Spirit, I had no conviction of sin. This means that my doubts about whether or not I was born again arose not because I did not trust God, but because I was far from certain that I had done what is needed to become a Christian. And if that is so, I am still unable to do anything more than going through the motions of becoming a Christian or being a Christian.
Sorry to have to repeat it, but finding some kind of spiritual awareness is important to me.

drich0150 · #32 12th September 2009, 11:45 PM

I am saying that until I have some kind of spiritual experience I will not know what God's bidding is for me personally.

His will for you is really really simple.. Find a need in your church or community, and fill it in His Name.

Unless you think that I can know God without having any spiritual awareness.

I asked what you wanted, you said you wished to serve. As I said, we don't have to know our master personally to go about His business.

and maybe the "barrier" is somewhere else.

Looking to "get" for what you give, or even before you give is barrier enough. A slave or servant gives without motive or demand.

losthope · #33 13th September 2009, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by drich0150

His will for you is really really simple.. Find a need in your church or community, and fill it in His Name.

I asked what you wanted, you said you wished to serve. As I said, we don't have to know our master personally to go about His business.

Looking to "get" for what you give, or even before you give is barrier enough. A slave or servant gives without motive or demand.

It is what God would want for me personally to be or to do, that I need to know. I am aware of general ways of serving God, including filling needs in a local church or community. But I would not describe that as God's guidance. It is supposed to be a personal relationship with the Lord. If that is what is offered, that is what I want. I have no desire to be a second class Christian.

losthope · #34 13th September 2009, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by losthope

If you cannot help, do you know of someone, anywhere in the world, who could help me? Perhaps someone open to the spiritual gifts of wisdom or a word of knowledge from God. Maybe there is someone who has met my situation before.

It is now more than a week since I put the original post onto this website. During that time several Christians have responded to parts of the post, and have made some helpful suggestions and comments. However, as at least one of the respondents has recognised, what I seem to need is an expert. Someone with enough of the Holy Spirit working in them to have a word of knowledge from God about my situation, or the wisdom to be able to see the root of the problem. Or it may be someone who has come across a person in my situation before, and has been able to help them. I know that I am not unique; I have heard of other people who lack both emotions and spiritual awareness, who have also failed to find God.

So I am asking again, do you know of someone, anywhere in the world, who could help me?

drich0150 · #35 13th September 2009, 11:41 AM

It is what God would want for me personally to be or to do, that I need to know.

You need to know that you do not have a Divine destiny beyond what is written for all of us. If Jesus was going to come to you in a vision, He would have probably have done it by now. Most of us are not like Paul, and get a direct invitation to serve the Lord. We have to use scripture, and follow it's plan.

But I would not describe that as God's guidance. It is supposed to be a personal relationship with the Lord. If that is what is offered, that is what I want. I have no desire to be a second class Christian.

If you want a relationship with God the we must first make ourselves "second class christians" and allow God to lift us up.

Jesus tells us this in Mark 9:
33They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, "What were you arguing about on the road?" 34But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest.

35Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all." 36He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37"Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."

When we are learning to listen for God for the first time, He rarely shouts or make overt gestures. Generally speaking He whispers by tugging on our heart one way or another. It is in seeing or recognizing needs of others that this tug can be experienced. Now if you use what you have been given, and can be found trustworthy with a small tug, then maybe next time you will experience a pull, and after a pull you might "feel" lead to your next opportunity for service, and so on..

The point is if you are responsible with what you have you will be given more. If you bury what you have, because your portion is not as large as others, what you have will be taken, and given to someone else.

If you truly want a relationship with God then use what ever you have around you to make that happen.

drich0150 · #36 13th September 2009, 12:36 PM

So I am asking again, do you know of someone, anywhere in the world, who could help me?

There is no one in Heaven above, on this earth, or under this earth who will be better suited to Help you than yourself. Because no one is going to be able to change the condition of your Heart except you. Until your willing to humble yourself to meet God where ever He is, or do what ever that may look like, then nothing anyone can do or say will be able to change who or what you are.

The lack of Spiritual awareness doesn't seem to be your problem, it's pride. You seem to be holding your faith, your love for ransom. You refuse to do, before you receive what it is you want.

Remember this is why I asked you if you didn't want Heaven what it is you wanted. In your initial response you told me you assumed that all christians wanted blessings, then went on to explain in fact you wanted to serve. When I explained it was possible to "serve" without the blessing of spiritual awareness, your expressed desire shifted to relationship. (something seemingly requiring spiritual awareness.)

Despite what your expressed desire is. you seem to be holding out for your spiritual rewards first. In truth a true relationship first starts with a humble Heart. (something that doesn't require a gift of any kind) If this is something you can not do then it is not a relationship with God you seek. It is equality. this is what caused Lucifer and a large number of angels to fall.

If you do seek a relationship with God then take some of the effort and energy your using seeking out a specialist, to help take the gift of spiritual awareness, and turn it into serving the Lord by filling a need in his name. Rather than trying to take this gift, perhaps you may one day receive it as a gift.

aiki · #37 13th September 2009, 09:09 PM

My only knowledge of the spiritual dimension to life is what people tell me about it. For me there is no spiritual dimension. It is just something that I have heard about.

Sorry to have to repeat it, but finding some kind of spiritual awareness is important to me.

If, for you, there is no spiritual dimension, why is finding it so important to you? Couldn't your desire to find that spiritual life of which you have heard others speak be seen as part of what God is doing to draw you to Himself? Especially in light of the fact that you are so convinced there is no spiritual dimension, it seems to me very meaningful that you are searching for it.

However, in 1974 I believed that I was born again, and I trusted that I was born again. Until I recognised that I really was the same and started to realise that the Holy Spirit had not come to reside in me.

What sort of a change were you expecting? And how did you think that change would occur?

I had faith that God had heard and answered my prayer for forgiveness and asking God to take charge of my life. I held onto that faith for almost two years, until it became absolutely certain that nothing had happened.

Why did you have faith that God had heard and answered your prayer for forgiveness?

Why were you holding on to your faith? Shouldn't you have been holding on to God and His promises? It sounds like you put your faith in your faith rather than in God.

The list was mostly of things that I did when I (thought I) was a Christian. I did not do them in an attempt to find God. I did them because they were the things that Christians do. I listed them in case someone would suggest that if I did one or more of them then I would certainly find God.

You've got the cart before the horse, here. You do these things as a result of finding God, not in order to find Him.

I am aware that some people do experience these things immediately, but that for other people the change is more gradual. However, I was expecting something to happen eventually. It was when months went by and still nothing happened that I started to have doubts.

The Bible says that when a person is genuinely saved a number of things become true of them immediately. These things are spiritual in nature, however, and cannot be observed or sensed physically. It remains, then, for the new Christian to begin to live in a way that recognizes and counts on what the Word of God says is true about them spiritually. Again, the will, informed by the truth of the Bible, chooses to act in conformity to what God says is now true of the new believer. The new Christian is not wrested from their old life and habits and made to behave in a new, righteous way as though they were suddenly God's puppet. God works in tandem with the new believer, imparting to them the grace to act on what they know of who they have become in Christ.

There are some people who can accept that the Bible is true, and from that they make a decision to step out in faith and find God. I am unable and unwilling to do that.

Do you mean accept blindly that the Bible is true?

It may be that after God starts to work in me, I could believe that the Bible is totally true. But not the other way round. To me, it would be putting my trust in a book rather than putting my trust in God. You may see it differently, but that is how I see it. Please do not ask me to have faith in a book before I have faith in God. Because unless I know God, my trust in the Bible will be worth nothing. God will still say to me,” depart from me because I do not know you.”

How do you know God will say this to you? Where do you get this "depart from me" stuff?

I do not ask anyone to put faith solely in a book, but in the Author of the Book. All that I know of God's character and purposes in Creation are revealed to me in the Bible. It speaks authoritatively about The Supreme Authority. I would not know to put my faith in Christ as my Saviour and Lord except the Bible told me so. But respecting the knowledge and wisdom contained in the Bible and relying upon it to guide my actions and worship of God does not equate to worship or faith in the Bible itself. I believe in the Bible as the Word of God, not as God itself.

In what God will you have faith? If you refuse to know God as revealed by the Bible, then who or what is God? How will you know anything about Him objectively? How will you know that He even cares if you believe in Him or not?

I asked as sincerely as I was able to ask, given that I did not have any particular awareness of sin or the need of a saviour for my sins to be forgiven. And I believed sincerely that I was saved.

Um, this doesn't make sense to me. If you doubted what the Bible said about your need to be forgiven from your sin, why would you "believe sincerely" what it also says about being saved? Since, in the Bible, being saved is inextricably linked to one's recognition of one's sin, your doubt about the latter necessarily affects the reality of the former. In other words, you could not be truly saved while doubting what it was you were saved from. This seems rather obvious to me...

Once again I have to say that my lack of awareness of being a sinner is due to a lack of spiritual awareness, because the Bible tells us that it is the Holy Spirit that brings a conviction of sin. Because I have no awareness of the Holy Spirit, I had no conviction of sin.

Hmmm...this sounds a lot like you're blaming God for your lack of faith.

This means that my doubts about whether or not I was born again arose not because I did not trust God, but because I was far from certain that I had done what is needed to become a Christian. And if that is so, I am still unable to do anything more than going through the motions of becoming a Christian or being a Christian.

Very Calvinistic of you.

Fortunately, God can break through the closed circuit of thought into which you have put yourself in this matter. I'd love to know how He does it. I'm sure it will be like nothing you will expect - or even desire.

I'll be praying for you!

Peace.

losthope · #38 15th September 2009, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by drich0150

You need to know that you do not have a Divine destiny beyond what is written for all of us. If Jesus was going to come to you in a vision, He would have probably have done it by now. Most of us are not like Paul, and get a direct invitation to serve the Lord. We have to use scripture, and follow it's plan.

If you want a relationship with God the we must first make ourselves "second class christians" and allow God to lift us up.

When we are learning to listen for God for the first time, He rarely shouts or make overt gestures. Generally speaking He whispers by tugging on our heart one way or another. It is in seeing or recognizing needs of others that this tug can be experienced. Now if you use what you have been given, and can be found trustworthy with a small tug, then maybe next time you will experience a pull, and after a pull you might "feel" lead to your next opportunity for service, and so on..

The point is if you are responsible with what you have you will be given more. If you bury what you have, because your portion is not as large as others, what you have will be taken, and given to someone else.

If you truly want a relationship with God then use what ever you have around you to make that happen.

What you suggest is effectively what I did for almost two years. Yet during that time there was never the slightest sign of a tug, a pull, or of God lifting me up in any way.

I am not expecting a vision or a direct call such as Paul received. I am merely searching for what hundreds of Christians have told me that they have received.

losthope · #39 15th September 2009, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by drich0150

There is no one in Heaven above, on this earth, or under this earth who will be better suited to Help you than yourself. Because no one is going to be able to change the condition of your Heart except you. Until your willing to humble yourself to meet God where ever He is, or do what ever that may look like, then nothing anyone can do or say will be able to change who or what you are.

The lack of Spiritual awareness doesn't seem to be your problem, it's pride. You seem to be holding your faith, your love for ransom. You refuse to do, before you receive what it is you want.

Remember this is why I asked you if you didn't want Heaven what it is you wanted. In your initial response you told me you assumed that all christians wanted blessings, then went on to explain in fact you wanted to serve. When I explained it was possible to "serve" without the blessing of spiritual awareness, your expressed desire shifted to relationship. (something seemingly requiring spiritual awareness.)

Despite what your expressed desire is. you seem to be holding out for your spiritual rewards first. In truth a true relationship first starts with a humble Heart. (something that doesn't require a gift of any kind) If this is something you can not do then it is not a relationship with God you seek. It is equality. this is what caused Lucifer and a large number of angels to fall.

If you do seek a relationship with God then take some of the effort and energy your using seeking out a specialist, to help take the gift of spiritual awareness, and turn it into serving the Lord by filling a need in his name. Rather than trying to take this gift, perhaps you may one day receive it as a gift.

If and when God calls, or I find God, then I will be willing to meet God anywhere, and to do what God asks of me.

If you had said that my problem is disappointment, i would have agreed with you. Pride? If it is there, I cannot see it in the way that you suggest.

I am not holding my faith to ransom. I have stepped out in faith more than once, and landed flat on my nose. Doing that again is clearly not the way for me, though I do not know why. I just do not not know how to find God. That is why I asked about spiritual awareness, in case a lack of spiritual awareness was in some way making a barrier between God and me.

It may be possible for you to serve God without having a relationship with God. But I am not interested in doing the same. I am not expecting a relationship with God to come first; I know that it comes after being saved.

Equality with God? Sorry, I have no idea why you suggested that idea.

What you are suggesting in your final paragraph sounds to me like a gospel of works. Serve God and all will be well. That is not my understanding of the gospel.

losthope · #40 15th September 2009, 04:12 AM

A reply to aiki

How do you manage to get the multi quotes in your reply to work? I assume that you press the “multi quote” button. When I press that button, nothing happens.

That is why I have to respond in this way, first preparing it on the word processor and then putting in the italics etc when I have copied it into the little box and the box has got rid of all my italics, different fonts and so on.

If, for you, there is no spiritual dimension, why is finding it so important to you? Couldn't your desire to find that spiritual life of which you have heard others speak be seen as part of what God is doing to draw you to Himself? Especially in light of the fact that you are so convinced there is no spiritual dimension, it seems to me very meaningful that you are searching for it.

I am interested in the spiritual dimension to life because I am aware that I am missing out on something important. I do not feel any spiritual “pull” from God; I wish I did feel such a pull.

What sort of a change were you expecting? And how did you think that change would occur?

I did not have any specific expectations. But I was expecting something to happen. However, nothing happened.

Why did you have faith that God had heard and answered your prayer for forgiveness?

Because I trusted God and the promises of the Bible.

Why were you holding on to your faith? Shouldn't you have been holding on to God and His promises? It sounds like you put your faith in your faith rather than in God.

I was holding onto the promises of God. Sorry if the way I worded things confused you.

You've got the cart before the horse, here. You do these things as a result of finding God, not in order to find Him.

I think you must have misunderstood my. My poor wording again, perhaps. I repeat, I was not doing those things in order to find God. I was doing those things because they are the things that Christians do.

The Bible says that when a person is genuinely saved a number of things become true of them immediately. These things are spiritual in nature, however, and cannot be observed or sensed physically. It remains, then, for the new Christian to begin to live in a way that recognizes and counts on what the Word of God says is true about them spiritually. Again, the will, informed by the truth of the Bible, chooses to act in conformity to what God says is now true of the new believer. The new Christian is not wrested from their old life and habits and made to behave in a new, righteous way as though they were suddenly God's puppet. God works in tandem with the new believer, imparting to them the grace to act on what they know of who they have become in Christ.

I agree with you completely, and that is the way it was for me. Except that I was never aware of receiving the grace that you write of.

How do you know God will say this to you? Where do you get this "depart from me" stuff?

Matthew 25

I do not ask anyone to put faith solely in a book, but in the Author of the Book. All that I know of God's character and purposes in Creation are revealed to me in the Bible. It speaks authoritatively about The Supreme Authority. I would not know to put my faith in Christ as my Saviour and Lord except the Bible told me so. But respecting the knowledge and wisdom contained in the Bible and relying upon it to guide my actions and worship of God does not equate to worship or faith in the Bible itself. I believe in the Bible as the Word of God, not as God itself.

In what God will you have faith? If you refuse to know God as revealed by the Bible, then who or what is God? How will you know anything about Him objectively? How will you know that He even cares if you believe in Him or not?

I also respect the knowledge and wisdom contained in the Bible. However, I do not go so far as to call it the word of God. God may have been the inspiration for the writers of the Bible, but it was written by human beings – and human beings get it wrong sometimes.

I never said that I could not have faith in God as revealed in the Bible. I said that I could not have faith in a book, and the reason is that it was written by fallible human beings.

I asked as sincerely as I was able to ask, given that I did not have any particular awareness of sin or the need of a saviour for my sins to be forgiven. And I believed sincerely that I was saved.

Um, this doesn't make sense to me. If you doubted what the Bible said about your need to be forgiven from your sin, why would you "believe sincerely" what it also says about being saved? Since, in the Bible, being saved is inextricably linked to one's recognition of one's sin, your doubt about the latter necessarily affects the reality of the former. In other words, you could not be truly saved while doubting what it was you were saved from. This seems rather obvious to me...

Who said that I doubted what the Bible said about my need to be forgiven from my sin? What I said was that I had no particular awareness of sin or the need of a saviour for my sins to be forgiven. The Bible tells us that such an awareness of sin arises when the Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin. Unfortunately I have no spiritual awareness, and so am not aware of any action of the Holy Spirit. Having said that, I recognise that it is quite possible that I was not truly saved because of lack of true sinserity about what I was being saved from.

Hmmm...this sounds a lot like you're blaming God for your lack of faith.

Not at all. I was merely suggesting that my lack of spiritual awareness was the problem. My lack of spiritual awareness, not something lacking in God.

Very Calvinistic of you. Fortunately, God can break through the closed circuit of thought into which you have put yourself in this matter. I'd love to know how He does it. I'm sure it will be like nothing you will expect - or even desire.

I'll be praying for you!

I didn’t think I was being Calvinistic. I meant that I did not know if I was saved, or not. And if I am not saved, then all I could do is to go through the motions, without it really meaning anything.

What a wonderful way to end your posting. Yes of course God can break through what you describe as my closed circle of thought. It has not happened yet, but it is always possible that it will happen one day. It could happen in any way, expected or unexpected, as you suggest. I have waited for such a thing to happen for many years, but that does not mean that it will not happen today or tomorrow. I and others have prayed for God to break through, as you suggest. I am sure that God is very resourceful, and would have no trouble finding a route to influence me in some way.