Hell- Will some truly be condemned to a place called Hell?

Gary51 · #**111** 12th September 2009, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Godschild87

There you go again, implying that we're all on the same level when that's clearly not the case.

I absolutely agree, we are not all on the same level.

steve4.truth · #**112** 12th September 2009, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by HeatherPd

Thank you to everyone who answered my question, whether they stated their own opinion or provided proof from the scriptures. I asked for both, so thank you.

Sadly, as a fairly new christian and a new member of the site, I was shocked to read the arguments taking place in this thread. Why argue with someone about their opinion? I asked for it and they gave it- stop attempting to prove others wrong by attacking their lack of "evidence" as you would say. These argumentative people know who they are. I appreciate your reply, but please take your nastiness elsewhere; it does not belong in a christian forum of all places.

And to others who, in a nutshell, advised me to read the Bible before asking questions-
- I am a recent christian and have not had the opportunity to read the Bible cover-to-cover, deciphering every verse.
- I am seventeen, young, and simply have questions.
- And I do not believe scriptures are the only possible way to address questions concerning our religion. Isn't that one of the purposes of the forum?

I think it's important to know fellow christians opinions and I will eventually derive from them and my own beliefs to form my own opinion.

This is good that you are asking questions. Jesus said that we should become like little children. Children are curious and seldom dogmatic. they are quick learners because they are not too rigid. And never close your mind totally off. I have changed many of my beliefs, yet I never consider myself to have the answers complete.
I'd like to add a few thoughts too, if I can avoid the nasty posters

.
One thing I didn't see anything about is how does God feel about the subject. There is sufficient reasoning on either side of the argument to see hellfire as literal or figurative. But how does God himself feel? As a Father, I can imagine that He could find a literal hellfire dishonoring. If my neighbor told everybody that to punish my kids, I put them on a hot stove, I would be horrified! How would I live that down? Jeremiah 7:31 is interesting "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which [is] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded [them] not, neither came it into my heart." God found this practice repulsive, and the idea didn't even come into his heart. We could ask ourselves, If He felt that way about them burning their kids, would he turn around and burn his own kids? notice the next verse: "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place."
God was so angry about these child sacrifices that he turned this valley into a burial ground. In Jesus day, this valley was used as a rubbish dump. Because it belonged to the son of Hinnom, it was called in greek, Gehenna. 12 times the Bible uses this word to refer to the punishment of the wicked and many translators changed the word to "hell". That is unfortunate because calling a geographical valley "hell" misleads people. Concerning “Gehinnom,” the Jewish commentator David Kimhi (1160-1235?), in his comment on Psalm 27:13, gives the following historical information: “And it is a place in the land adjoining Jerusalem, and it is a loathsome place, and they throw there unclean things and carcasses. Also there was a continual fire there to burn the unclean things and the bones of the carcasses. Hence, the judgment of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom.”
Sulfur or "brimstone" was added to keep the fires going. No live bodies were thrown there for turture--only dead carcasses. If the fire didn't totally consume the carcase, the worms would. hence, "the worm dieth not". Imagine being a citizen of Jerusalem. Every day, you would gather your trash together and walk down to this valley and throw your garbage there. Everything you throw in there burns up--ceases to exist. As you look at the flames, you see them carrying the body of a criminal who was just executed down and throwing his body in. You might think, "what a shame. Everyone else gets a proper burial in their family tomb so they will be remembered. It's almost like this guy is trash. I better watch myself to make sure I'm never thrown in here." As you walk back home, you see Jesus teaching and you stop to listen. When you hear Jesus say that the wicked will be thrown into Gehenna, as he points toward where you just came from, would the idea of living people being tortured forever come into your mind? Or would you understand that He was warning that the wicked would be totally destroyed and not resurrected by God as Jesus taught that everyone else would be. Just like that trash you just threw in there, it would be gone forever--the exact opposite of eternal life.

oldsage · #**113** 12th September 2009, 11:17 AM

Sorry I left quite abruptly but there was a fire in an adjacent apartment which partially spread to mine and had to vacate it. The apartment complex relocated me in a new apartment and I didn't lose anything in my old one, so that is great. I just started back reading this thread and there is a lot to read so what I did was take the post that Der Alter put up and I am going to post a reply to all of it. Because there are 28 items which he wants all answered, it will take several post to put up, which is why many doesn't want to take the time to do it. Plus something this large is really unhelpful when it comes to a discussion.

So, anyway, the post will begin on the next post.

oldsage · #**114** 12th September 2009, 11:26 AM

In the course of responding to this it seems this Der Alter's post is really a response to "Universalism" which isn't the same thing I hold to. I do not believe in the ultimate salvation of all people, I believe in the salvation of the believers which has to happen prior to the second coming and the complete destruction of the wicked. So, some of the passages I do not respond to because they are irrelevant to my position.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Yes, it supports the chaff being consumed, brought to ashes and such.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Doesn't speak against the death of the wicked.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness1 shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

1 Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Doesn't speak against the death of the wicked

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Well, this doesn't support eternal torment but I did notice the word "perish" a few times.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

Well, this helps my side, saying one road leads to "destruction"

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say2 to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

No support for any position in this passage

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Throughout the Bible, “gnashing of teeth” denotes extreme anger and hostility.

Job 16:9; Psalms 35:16; Psalms 37:12; Psalms 112:10; Lamentations 2:16; Acts 7:54; Matthew 13:43, 49-50; Matthew 22:13-14; Matthew 24:50-51; Matthew 25:30; Luke 13:28.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

No claims about the eternal fate of the wicked here

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I have answer the "Gnashing of Teeth" idiom on number 7, so I will not repeat it here. This passage also doesn't say anything to the eternal state of the wicked. I know if you burn tares they become ash.

At the end of the world, “All things that offend/the wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire.” What is the duration of burning in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Already answer the "Gnashing of Teeth in number 7. This passage doesn't mention duration.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted3, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Doesn't have anything to do with the duration of punishment for the wicked.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Let's see how "Eternal Fire" is used on something we know has happened.

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Genesis 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes and saw that the Jordan Valley was well watered everywhere like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, in the direction of Zoar. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.)

2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

I would rather go by how the bible uses words and examples than just go with my preconceived ideas about what is says.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

No help to the topic

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

This speaks about the King "destroying" murderers and "burning up" cities. This works for me. Dealing with verse 13, there parable speaks about them being cast out into outer darkness. It never mentions what that darkness is. I could simply means put out on the streets away from the lights of the house. And I answered the "Gnashing of Teeth" on number 7.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Doesn't deal with duration nor about what the eternal fate of anyone is.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

Doesn't deal with the eternal fate.

oldsage · #**115** 12th September 2009, 11:34 AM

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].

I have already addressed 41. And in verse 46 it is the punishment which is everlasting and the bible plainly says the "wages of sin is death" in Romans 6:23. Here we have to contrasting states, one is life and the other is death. Both will be everlasting depending on which camp one falls.

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

If the αιωνιον/aiónion punishment ends at some indeterminate time in the future, so too does the αιωνιον/aiónion life. The same word.

Here is the problem. You are trying to argue for how long both camps perceive the term αἰών and what you are missing both camps agree on its meaning. So it is fallacious to even argue on it's meaning by saying if the punishment ends so does the life.

Both sides believe the life goes on for eternity, and both sides agree the punishment goes on for eternity. We just disagree on what the punishment is. One side says the punishment is torment or separation and the other side says it is death. So arguing for the meaning of the word αἰών is mute.

So, I will deal with Revelation 14:9-11:

Most people understand that the Revelation is full of highly figurative language, largely drawn from imagery used by the Old Testament prophets. This being so we must carefully examine the Old Testament background that lies behind all of the images used to describe the final fate of the lost in Revelation.

In fact, the passage under consideration does not describe the final fate of the lost at all. It is a description of the judgments to fall upon those who worship the beast and receive his mark during the Great Tribulation described in the Apocalypse. Nevertheless, four things are said of those who worship the beast and receive his mark:

1. That they will “drink of the wine of God’s fury”;

2. That they will be “tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb;

3. That “the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever”; and,

4. That they will have “no rest day and night”.

To drink the wine of God’s wrath is a common Old Testament symbol of judgment. They drink, they stagger, they fall down to rise no more (Jer. 25:15-16, 27). They will become as if they had never been (Obadiah 16). To drink down to the dregs (Psa. 75:8), symbolizes the completeness of the destruction. But this is a symbol of destruction, not of eternal torment.
So too, the imagery of “fire and brimstone” brings to mind the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:24) which Jude tells us (in v. 7) is an “example” of what will happen to those who “suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” The overthrow of Assyria is depicted in similar language (Isa. 30:27-33), as is the destruction of Edom (Isa. 34:8-10) and of Gog (Ezekiel 38:22). In each case the end result is that the wicked are consumed not tortured. Nothing will be left but ashes (Mal. 4:1-3).

The image of rising smoke is another common Old Testament symbol of destruction used, for example, to describe the total destruction of Edom, (Isa. 34:10). When Abraham arose the morning after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah he saw smoke ascending like a memorial to God’s justice. The inhabitants of those cities were not however still being tormented. They had been “reduced to ashes” by the “eternal fire” (2Pet. 2:6, Jude 7). Notice it is the smoke of their torment that goes up forever and ever not their torment that goes on forever and ever.

The phrase “no rest day or night” signifies the continuity of the judgment, not its perpetuity. For those who worship the Beast and receive his mark, there will be no break, no reprieve, no relaxing, no respite until those judgments depicted throughout the Revelation be exhausted. The sinner always lives under such uncertainty (Deut. 28:66, Psa. 32:4) to one degree or another.

In every instance the imagery of Revelation 14:9-11 speaks of destruction, not eternal torment.

Now on the the quenching:

18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern to them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern to them?

It would be best to answer this from an expert who has already given a wonderful article on this subject. This is dealing with the "Worms die not, and fire is not quenched":

The phrase you cite first comes from Isaiah 66:24, which portrays the righteous going out of the city of Jerusalem, following God’s final judgment on the wicked, and viewing their dead corpses in the city “dump” — where maggots (”the worm”) and smoldering garbage fire (”the fire”) race to consume them. It is a scene, Isaiah says, of disgust or abhorrence (v. 24). Note that the picture includes dead corpses, not living beings. It involves shame, not pain. These are the “corpses of those whom the Lord has slain.”

Throughout the Bible, the figure of “unquenchable” fire refers to fire which cannot be resisted, and which thus completely BURNS UP whatever is put into it (Matt. 3:12; Ezek. 20:47-48; Amos 5:5-6).

During intertestamental times, this language came to be associated with the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, also known as Gehenna, the word translated “hell” in the New Testament. Gehenna is an actual place outside Jerusalem, which I viewed with my own eyes in June 1999 during a pilgrimage to Israel. Gehenna was once the site of child sacrifice (2 Kings 16:3; 21:6) and later the city “dump” for garbage and dead carcasses (Jer. 7:31-33; 19:2-13). It was a repugnant and disgusting place in biblical times, crawling with maggots and filled with sickening sights and smells.

The Jewish literature from between the Testaments (the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigrapha, and the Dead Sea Scrolls) uses the word “Gehenna” to speak of the place of final punishment, although with some diversity of meaning. Most of these writers reveal an expectation of total and eternal annihilation, although one passage in apocryphal Judith clearly says the wicked will endure conscious torment forever and a few texts in the Pseudepigrapha might suggest that fate as well.

When Jesus borrows language from Isaiah 66:24 for his own teaching (Mk. 9:48), we must read the Scripture he quotes if we wish to understand his meaning. That biblical text clearly describes total destruction, not conscious torment. Since Jesus says nothing to change the original meaning, but rather confirms it in other places (see Matt. 10:28), we are safe to leave it just as it stands.

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.

Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

Since I am not dealign with "Universalism" I will skip this one.

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Lump this one with 19.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

The terms here have been discussed above already.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

Again this is a argument against "Universalism" so I will let it lie since I don't agree with Universalist.

I do believe an answer should be given to the parable of the Rich Man and Lazurus

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable?

I don't know any scholars who don't believe this is a parable. Even Evangelicals who believe in eternal torment knows this is a parable. Because this requires a long winded answer, I will just post a link to an article which explains this very good. I think anyone who really wants to know about this will go there and read the article, those who don't go, well, they really aren't interested in hearing the answers. This article even quotes Craig Bloomberg a noted Evangelical Scholar who written several books and articles on the Parables of Jesus.
Afterlife Blog Archive ?The Rich Man and Lazarus?

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does this verse change?
[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,5 he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit]5, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

5 Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?”

More universalism stuff again.

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Note in the most well known and loved passage in the N.T. Jesus did not say everyone was saved already. But he said they are condemned already.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This has been answer in the previous parts of this topic.

oldsage · #**116** 12th September 2009, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Godschild87

Disappointing. You almost had me convinced.

The Wicked Destroyed

Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalm 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

Psalm 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Matthew 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Der Alter · #**117** 12th September 2009, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by oldsage

In the course of responding to this it seems this Der Alter's post is really a response to "Universalism" which isn't the same thing I hold to. I do not believe in the ultimate salvation of all people, I believe in the salvation of the believers which has to happen prior to the second coming and the complete destruction of the wicked. So, some of the passages I do not respond to because they are irrelevant to my position.

[1] Matthew 3:12 [ . . . ]
Yes, it supports the chaff being consumed, brought to ashes and such.

While I did originally compile this list of scripture for a discussion on universalism. I think I explained that at the beginning. I have found that it is helpful to actually read something before responding.

One observation which holds true throughout, as I suspected, most of your replies are virtually meaningless one liners, of the nature, "Is not! Nuh Uh!" nature, and you address each vs. in isolation, as if none of them have any relation to any of the others. All passages together express Jesus' view on the eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous. In Matt 3:12 what did Jesus mean when he said "the fire is not quenched?"

[2] Matthew 5:13 [ . . . ]

Doesn't speak against the death of the wicked.

See first comment.

[3] Matthew 5:20 [ . . . ] ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Doesn't speak against the death of the wicked

See first comment!

[4] Matthew 5:29 [ . . . ] that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 [ . . . ]one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Well, this doesn't support eternal torment but I did notice the word "perish" a few times.

I note you ignored the words "cast into hell," with the meaning understood by 1st century Jews and further explained by Jesus later.

[5]Matt 7:13 [ . . . ]

Well, this helps my side, saying one road leads to "destruction"

See first comment, above.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one [ . . . ]shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
23 [ . . . ]I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

No support for any position in this passage

See first comment above.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Throughout the Bible, “gnashing of teeth” denotes extreme anger and hostility.

See first comment, above, and when does this weeping and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness end?

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

No claims about the eternal fate of the wicked here

You don't think being denied before the father in heaven is eternal?

[9] Matt 13:39 [ . . . ]
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I have answer the "Gnashing of Teeth" idiom on number 7, so I will not repeat it here. This passage also doesn't say anything to the eternal state of the wicked. I know if you burn tares they become ash.

When does the wailing and gnashing of teeth in the furnace end? See other vss. by Jesus addressing this.

At the end of the world, “All things that offend/the wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire.” What is the duration of burning in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Not addressed!

[10] Mat 13:49 [ . . . ]shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Already answer the "Gnashing of Teeth in number 7. This passage doesn't mention duration.

See comment above. When does the wailing and gnashing of teeth end?

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] [ . . . ]ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Doesn't have anything to do with the duration of punishment for the wicked.

See earlier comments. What is the duration for those who enter the kingdom of heaven?

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Let's see how "Eternal Fire" is used on something we know has happened.

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

And you know for an indisputable fact that the Sodomites are not now experiencing eternal fire?

John Gill commentary - and in the burning of the wicked; and in the circumstance attending both, suddenly, at an unawares, when not thought of, and expected; and in the nature of them, being a destruction total, irreparable, and everlasting: and this agrees with the sentiments of the Jews, who say (l), that "the men of Sodom have no part or portion in the world to come, and shall not see the world to come.

And says R. Isaac,

"Sodom is judged בדינא דגיהנם, "with the judgment of hell" (m).

Genesis 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes and saw that the Jordan Valley was well watered everywhere like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, in the direction of Zoar. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.)

Relevance.

2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

I would rather go by how the bible uses words and examples than just go with my preconceived ideas about what is says.

No you don't. You ignore how Jesus used the words!

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

No help to the topic

If you ignore the context of the other 28 passages as you are doing. Tell me again how you "go by how the bible uses words and examples."

[14] Matt 22:2 a certain king,[ . . . ]sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.[ . . . ] Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[ . . . ]

This speaks about the King "destroying" murderers and "burning up" cities. This works for me. Dealing with verse 13, there parable speaks about them being cast out into outer darkness. It never mentions what that darkness is. I could simply means put out on the streets away from the lights of the house. And I answered the "Gnashing of Teeth" on number 7.

I'm sure you could say a lot of things while you ignore the full context of Jesus words on this subject. Once again when does the weeping and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness end? When does the "zoe aionion" of the righteous end?

[15] Matt 23:13 [ . . . ]you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! [ . . . ]ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Doesn't deal with duration nor about what the eternal fate of anyone is.

Doesn't deal with it when you ignore all of Jesus words on the subject. What is the duration of hell?

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

Doesn't deal with the eternal fate.

See vss. at the end of this series of parables.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

oldsage · #**118** 12th September 2009, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by HeatherPd

Thank you to everyone who answered my question, whether they stated their own opinion or provided proof from the scriptures. I asked for both, so thank you.

Sadly, as a fairly new christian and a new member of the site, I was shocked to read the arguments taking place in this thread. Why argue with someone about their opinion? I asked for it and they gave it- stop attempting to prove others wrong by attacking their lack of "evidence" as you would say. These argumentative people know who they are. I appreciate your reply, but please take your nastiness elsewhere; it does not belong in a christian forum of all places.

And to others who, in a nutshell, advised me to read the Bible before asking questions-
- I am a recent christian and have not had the opportunity to read the Bible cover-to-cover, deciphering every verse.
- I am seventeen, young, and simply have questions.
- And I do not believe scriptures are the only possible way to address questions concerning our religion. Isn't that one of the purposes of the forum?

I think it's important to know fellow christians opinions and I will eventually derive from them and my own beliefs to form my own opinion.

Hello Heather,

This is one of the best post I have seen in a while. There are times we get caught up in doctrinal debate we sometimes forget we can do it with courtesy.

I think Christians, new and old, should ask questions within their ranks and not be told they need to read the bible. I am sure most new Christians are reading the bible and have question on what they have learned or on what others have told them. I am very sorry we have not lived up to the expectation you have put on us. In defensive of us, even in the early Church there was contention over what the meaning of things were and also with those who were outside the church. Forums are no different, we have many different beliefs of Christianity represented here and sometimes they bump heads to show why they are right and others are wrong. Some also read or have listened to apologist who is trained to debate and think they can do it also.

My advice is to just glean the information relevant to what you want and toss the rest as foolish children learning how to play together.

Blessings,
Chris

steve4.truth · #**119** 12th September 2009, 02:22 PM

I can not add anything to Oldsage--very well explained.
A few years ago, when I was personally deciding whether to accept a figurative view of hellfire or not, this was the "bottom line". In trying to figure out whether God himself considered the 20 or so references to "hell-fire" in HIS Bible to be literal or figurative, we do well to look at where those references are located--in the two most figurative parts of the Bible (Jesus' parables and Revelations). there are no clear references to hellfire in the entire Old Testament, Acts, Romans, I,II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col, etc... Why isn't such a fundamental teaching addressed in 99% of the Bible? Ah, but it is! The whole Bible sets before us life or death--from the first time that God explained to Adam what his punishment would be, to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. That's why I stopped believing in eternal torment. Since the Bible was written for the specific reason of revealing God's thoughts and was geared for the common man, the most obvious and simple understanding that a common person would get by reading through the whole Bible is always going to be the correct one.

Der Alter · #**120** 12th September 2009, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by steve4.truth

I can not add anything to Oldsage--very well explained.
A few years ago, when I was personally deciding whether to accept a figurative view of hellfire or not, this was the "bottom line". In trying to figure out whether God himself considered the 20 or so references to "hell-fire" in HIS Bible to be literal or figurative, we do well to look at where those references are located--in the two most figurative parts of the Bible (Jesus' parables and Revelations). there are no clear references to hellfire in the entire Old Testament, Acts, Romans, I,II Cor., Gal., Eph., Phil., Col, etc... Why isn't such a fundamental teaching addressed in 99% of the Bible? Ah, but it is! The whole Bible sets before us life or death--from the first time that God explained to Adam what his punishment would be, to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. That's why I stopped believing in eternal torment. Since the Bible was written for the specific reason of revealing God's thoughts and was geared for the common man, the most obvious and simple understanding that a common person would get by reading through the whole Bible is always going to be the correct one.

Unfortunately the ancient Jews refute your own private, esoteric revelation. Guess you think the Jews got it wrong interpreting their Hebrew scriptures but you somehow got it right although you probably couldn't locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

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JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA