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  #31  
Old 6th November 2009, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by WOFFER View Post
No, you show me in the New Testament where it is to continue.
wow great argument, you almost had me convinced...

how about this one...

the writer to the Hebrews who was clearly new testament said... Heb. 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Jesus is still in the business of receiving tithes and when we tithe we testify that he is alive... the fact that it testifies that he is alive is speaking of after the resurrection, tithing is still for the new testament church...
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  #32  
Old 6th November 2009, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by probinson View Post
(continued from previous post...)

The mini-sermons didn't seem to gel with the actual sermons. At all. We would begin by saying that the only way God can bless us is if we give 10% of our full income, and we would end by saying that God can and does bless us even when we don't deserve it. I began to wonder if tithing was the one glaring exception to God's grace, like He would bless you because of His unconditional Love for you UNLESS you didn't tithe. Was tithing the one condition to God’s unconditional Love?

Suddenly, I began questioning everything I ever believed about tithing. It just didn't fit at all with the new found revelation I'd had of God's Love, grace and mercy toward me. The messages that I’d heard that caused this revelation of God’s Love in me were also the catalyst for what caused me to begin to question what I believed, not only about tithing, but about all of the aspects of my relationship with God

So I thought back to when I stopped tithing when I worked at Pizza Hut. Why did everything fall apart when I stopped tithing? Is it because I was being disobedient and not tithing? After much prayer and reflection, I no longer believe that is true. Instead, I now believe that the reason was one word; greed. I wanted that money for myself. I wanted it for my own purposes. I did not want to give it, because it would mean more stuff for *me*. I did not want to give anything at all. I wanted it to spend on my own desires. It was a horrible attitude.

Then I thought of my financial hardship a few years back. My desire truly was to give. I wanted to support the church where I believe God has called me. But I simply did not have the means to do so. Or so I had been taught...

Having been taught the "tithe" was the only acceptable minimal amount, it's as if I were only able to give 9.5% that it wasn't good enough. This engendered in me a belief that if I could not tithe, a FULL 10% of my GROSS income, then it was not good enough, like God was sitting up in heaven with a ledger sheet keeping track of all I'd given. It was this idea that caused me to stop giving altogether. Why bother to give anything if 9% isn't good enough? That was my attitude.

This bothered me. For a period of probably 6 months, I gave very, very sporadically, feeling some incredible condemnation when I would give. However, I began to notice something during this time; My world didn't fall apart! In fact, despite the economic downturn in the world, I received a bonus, just like I had in the years before when I was tithing. Our tax return was much larger than I'd anticipated. In other words, even though I was not tithing (not to mention hardly giving anything at all), I was still being blessed pretty handily.

Then it happened. The 5% pay-cut at work. Those beliefs I'd had my entire life caused me to begin to wonder, is this happening because I didn't tithe? Could I have protected the source of my income and that of all of those people at work had I only tithed, had I only performed and measured up to God’s expectations better?

Then I wondered even further; What about the tens upon hundreds of thousands of people at GM? Chrysler? Circuit City? Were there no Christians there that were tithers? Why weren't they able to protect the source of their income by tithing?

I began to realize that I had a 5% pay cut at work for one reason; a really bad economy. It had nothing to do with whether or not I gave 10% of my income. I took a 5% pay cut because we live in this world that is in shambles at the moment. God never promised us that we would avoid all trouble. In fact, Jesus tells us that in this world, we will have all kinds of trouble. But He also tells us to take heart, because He has overcome the world and all of the troubles associated. We may go through difficult times, but we emerge victorious every time because of the Love, grace and mercy of God through His Son Jesus Christ.

Despite that pay cut, I have been very blessed. I have a nice home. There is more than enough food on our table every night. My 2 children are an amazing blessing, and we were even able to send my son to an excellent Christian preschool at a sizable additional monthly cost with little to no impact on our financial situation. My wife has been the most wonderful blessing of all. All of these blessings and more continued to increase despite us not tithing.

It was then that God began to show me that He was not interested in 10% of my income. He was interested in a relationship with me. Ironically, this is the same thing that we have been hearing at our church. It is the teaching that I've heard at church that has since become revelation to me that has caused me to think very differently about tithing.

God began to bring things to my remembrance. I remembered looking at my tax return, looking at the receipt for my giving at the church, and feeling as if I had failed because I had only given 9.7% of my gross income. I remembered looking at a prior year's tax return and thinking that I was some kind of wonderful because I'd given over 11%. It was as if I was measuring my relationship, at least as far as my giving was concerned, to a hard-coded number instead of an intimate relationship with my Father. Never had it been so glaringly obvious to me that I was basing my blessing upon my *performance*. The “bar” was set. It was just a matter of whether or not I could reach that bar.

Then God led me to this scripture;
2 Corinthians 9:7 (AMP)
Let each one [give] as he has made up his own mind and purposed in his heart, not reluctantly or sorrowfully or under compulsion, for God loves (He takes pleasure in, prizes above other things, and is unwilling to abandon or to do without) a cheerful (joyous, "prompt to do it") giver [whose heart is in his giving].
I had given reluctantly, sorrowfully, and under compulsion my whole life. I was rarely truly and genuinely happy about it, and my heart was almost never in my giving. It was nothing more than a performance mark. Even when my wife and I would pray over our tithe, it was just an automatic response to receiving money. Get $10.00, give $1.00, say a prayer. Really, no relationship required. Simple.

I also noted that the Amplified Bible says that the one that gives as he has made up in his own mind and purposed in his own heart, that is the one that God takes pleasure in and is unwilling to abandon or do without. There is no mention of God abandoning us or allowing the devourer to run amuck in our finances if we don't give a tenth.

This paradigm shift in my thinking and my believing greatly concerned me. It was so very foreign to everything that I had ever learned and believed prior, but it was something I could not deny. Despite the chaos I felt inside, I still felt an indescribable peace. This was not me trying to make excuses to get out of tithing, or desiring more money for myself for selfish gain. Quite to the contrary, this was me examining my beliefs in light of the revelation of His Love toward me, and with a real desire to give to and support the church where I believe God has called me.

This has been an extremely difficult and awkward thing for me. Never before have I come to such a radically different conclusion than I was hearing taught at church. I've had minor disagreements on some issues, but never before was the belief that I felt welling up on the inside of me so diametrically opposed to what I was hearing taught.

We have recently been talking about renewing our minds at church. That's just what I have done. In receiving a revelation of God's Love, grace and mercy, hearing how His Love is unconditional for us, hearing how His Love is "prodigal", hearing how He is "recklessly, wildly and dangerously" Loving us, hearing how there is nothing we can do to separate ourselves from His Love, my mind has been renewed. All performance-based criteria that I once thought were important no longer matter.

As a result, try as I might, I could not reconcile to my renewed mind some of the things that I'd been taught my entire life concerning tithing. It seemed like it was the one performance-oriented exception to the rule. It made absolutely no sense to this renewed mind.

So, I brought this topic up with my wife recently one evening. Much to my surprise, she had been thinking about the exact same things I had. We hadn’t talked about tithing or giving for months, but the things she said to me in our conversation were almost verbatim the things I felt God had been speaking to me for months. It was a confirmation of things God began stirring in me months before.

As a result, I have stopped "tithing". I am now giving as God leads me. Additionally, I am not keeping track of what I give. I have changed from writing checks to giving cash, from fully completed envelopes to receive a receipt for my giving, to plain white envelopes with no information on them at all. I do not want to know the amount I have given. I do not want to look at the amount at the end of the year and think for one minute that the blessings from God I've enjoyed are because I've met the 10% quota for the year, or think that the reason I've not excelled is because I missed the mark. In short, I do not want to measure my *performance* in my giving any longer.

I simply want to give cheerfully and be a blessing to my church that has been such a blessing to me and my family. I don't want to feel condemned when I don't "measure up" to the 10% line. I want to get to a place where when I see a need, God can rely on me to do all I can to help. I want to get to a place where I hear the voice of God clearly concerning my giving.

I don't want to measure my giving any longer to see if I measure up to the 10% requirement. I simply want to determine in my heart what to give, and give it cheerfully. Maybe that will be 10%, maybe 8%, maybe 14%, maybe $30... whatever it is, I want to give it cheerfully from my heart, knowing that because of my relationship with God, I have heard His voice, and I've done what He has asked of me.

I do not anticipate that many people will agree with me on this, but I am thankful for my wife, and that we have a true peace that we are following what we believe God is calling us to do with our finances.
I agree 100%
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  #33  
Old 6th November 2009, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Elimelech View Post
wow great argument, you almost had me convinced...

how about this one...

the writer to the Hebrews who was clearly new testament said... Heb. 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Jesus is still in the business of receiving tithes and when we tithe we testify that he is alive... the fact that it testifies that he is alive is speaking of after the resurrection, tithing is still for the new testament church...
I agree.......the church today is still supposed to tithe.
And I'm looking for any of my WoF friends from - the other forum who might be here.
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  #34  
Old 6th November 2009, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Elimelech View Post
wow great argument, you almost had me convinced...

how about this one...

the writer to the Hebrews who was clearly new testament said... Heb. 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Jesus is still in the business of receiving tithes and when we tithe we testify that he is alive... the fact that it testifies that he is alive is speaking of after the resurrection, tithing is still for the new testament church...
Who was the author writing to? Hebrews?
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  #35  
Old 6th November 2009, 06:05 PM
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So, is anyone going to answer my question? In the OT was everyone of Gods people required to tithe?
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  #36  
Old 6th November 2009, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeVan View Post
I believe I should tithe and give. Not because some church expects me to or is desperate to keep their lights on - their source is from God first and foremost. I believe being like Christ is being charitable and giving. That means looking for ways to bless rather than trying to get it down to a bare 10% and thinking you paid some bill. We are blessed to be a blessing, and as we bless, we are blessed even more. You try to get by with as little giving as possible, by that measure you will receive. Personally, I prefer a much larger measure.

I believe required tithes - like some church tax - are wrong. No one should be peer-pressured to tithe. God values a CHEERFUL giver. Not a spiteful or begrudging giver. However, I do believe that the tithe is as effective today as ever. And I believe if one truly walks by the Spirit, this is a non-issue - he will give reflexively and will feel odd if he doesn't give.
MikeV......are you my bud from - ummm.....the other forum?
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  #37  
Old 6th November 2009, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by probinson View Post
(continued from previous post...)
I do not anticipate that many people will agree with me on this, but I am thankful for my wife, and that we have a true peace that we are following what we believe God is calling us to do with our finances.
I truly believe that what you are describing here is the next move of God in the World. Not whether to tithe or not, but the revelation of His love for us, and the grace and goodness of God.

Once God has restored the revelation of faith, what is left but love?

And here is the real kicker. History will show you that it is always the previous moves campfire tenders that lead the persecution of the next move of God. I am convinced that the next move of God is all about relationship and undeserving love based on what Christ did, not on what we do. It will be a revelation of grace, of Gods unmerited love for us.

But so many in WOF have created their own list of traditional laws regarding tithing, and what words one can say or not, etc., (in fact, my favorite teacher said not too long ago that using the word 'fantastic' was a bad confession cause it was based on the root word 'fantasy', and the devil was a legal nitpicker who would hold the words to their legal definition before the Father regardless of what definition you were applying to it), that they are going to reject the fulness of the new move.

The liberty and forgiveness and acceptance that come with the lavish display of the love of God that is coming is going to offend many who have based their faith life on obeying the new traditions of WOF, which in many cases are simply our own laws. It will particularly offend those in the ministry who look to those in the pews as their source of income, rather than looking to God as their source.

Peace...
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  #38  
Old 6th November 2009, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by WOFFER View Post
Who was the author writing to? Hebrews?
Are some believers excluded - is God partial? We are of the same vine.
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  #39  
Old 6th November 2009, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Rachel R View Post
MikeV......are you my bud from - ummm.....the other forum?
Rachel
Hee - I like that. The Other Forum (tm) - the cesspool of strife and bickering and attack-threads. Yeah, it's me - so good to see you here where it's a lot more peaceful and uplifting.
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  #40  
Old 6th November 2009, 07:59 PM
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The book of Hebrews was written to Christians, not Jews.

Thanks,
Ben
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