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  #21  
Old 30th August 2009, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cabal View Post
You did say that Darwinism gets manipulated by people of both sides, and you felt the need to introduce this guy as a Marxist historian (as opposed to....?), so.....
Yeah, that's the point, he's a Marxist and therefore unbiased in asserting that Darwinism was based on capitalism...
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  #22  
Old 30th August 2009, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by marlowe007 View Post
According to the Marxist historian Robert Young, there is no distinction between Darwinism and Social Darwinism. This fact is not a denial of evolution itself, but an acknowledgment that Darwin's biological views attempted to bring man into nature and were built on the political economy of Malthus, Smith and others.
The scientific theory of evolution has absolutely nothing to do with the social model of darwinism, social or otherwise. Darwinism, according to wikipedia "has been applied to the claim that Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection can be used to understand the social endurance of a nation or country, social Darwinism commonly refers to ideas that predate Darwin's publication of On the Origin of Species."

Bascially, it is a social adaptation of the ideas of natural selection that has no bearing on either the validity of the theory of evolution, nor the morality thereof. A scientific theory is amoral. Trying to inject morality into it is just working from your own biases.
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  #23  
Old 30th August 2009, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by marlowe007 View Post
Yeah, that's the point, he's a Marxist and therefore unbiased in asserting that Darwinism was based on capitalism...
...by equating it with social Darwinism.

And you really consider him unbiased?

You really want to run with this?
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  #24  
Old 30th August 2009, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Cabal View Post
...by equating it with social Darwinism.
Marx believed that Darwin had validated his ideologue, so this is not an argument that Marx would have made.
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  #25  
Old 30th August 2009, 12:41 PM
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Ok, before we carry on this discussion any further, when we're discussing Darwinism, I would hope that we're talking about Darwin's ideas/philosophies/ideas contemporary with Darwin etc only and not contemporary evolutionary theory?
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  #26  
Old 30th August 2009, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by marlowe007 View Post
Marx believed that Darwin had validated his ideologue, so this is not an argument that Marx would have made.
Fair enough, I didn't know that. How did Marx believe that Darwin validated him?
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  #27  
Old 30th August 2009, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
What is embedded in the Theory of Evolution is the concept of Eugenics, a word you don't see evolutionists using here.
To put this in a form AV can understand:

QV please

aka, Pot: Meet Kettle.
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  #28  
Old 30th August 2009, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sbvera13 View Post
To put this in a form AV can understand:

QV please

aka, Pot: Meet Kettle.
Well, I was going to make the point that we should ask the Amalekites what they thought of eugenics, but that article beat me to it
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  #29  
Old 30th August 2009, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Cabal View Post
Fair enough, I didn't know that. How did Marx believe that Darwin validated him?
[Darwin's work] … serves me as a natural scientific basis for the class struggle in history. (Marx)

Darwin did not know what a bitter satire he wrote on mankind and especially on his countrymen, when he showed that free competition, and the struggle for existence, which the economists celebrate as the highest historical achievement, is the normal state of the animal kingdom. (Engels)
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  #30  
Old 30th August 2009, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by marlowe007
According to the Marxist historian Robert Young, there is no distinction between Darwinism and Social Darwinism. This fact is not a denial of evolution itself, but an acknowledgment that Darwin's biological views attempted to bring man into nature and were built on the political economy of Malthus, Smith and others.
I think this tells us more about Young's Marxism than it does about Evolution.

[Darwin's work] … serves me as a natural scientific basis for the class struggle in history. (Marx)

Darwin did not know what a bitter satire he wrote on mankind and especially on his countrymen, when he showed that free competition, and the struggle for existence, which the economists celebrate as the highest historical achievement, is the normal state of the animal kingdom. (Engels)
So Marx saw Darwin as the basis for Marxism while Engels thought it described Capitalism?
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