Yes, it is an opinion about the grammar. I have stated reasons for the opinion, and would welcome feedback or different opinions, I only ask that reasons for the opinion be stated. If you believe this opinion about the grammar to be in error, then pls. show the error. It is in this way that students can weed out error and discover the most accurate solution. Looking forward to feedback.
__________________ "Study to show yourself approved unto God, a good workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15
Last edited by archierieus; 29th August 2009 at 11:05 PM.
Yes, the dative fem. by grace obviously modifives the perf pass. participle, nom. pl. masc. you have been saved. The genitive sing. fem. through faith clearly modifies 'by grace you have been saved.' That leaves 'and that not of yourselves.' NOMINATIVE sing. neuter would appear to relate back to the NOMINATIVE participle 'you have been saved' AND ITS MODIFIERS. LLOJ you asked about 'gift,' as a NOMINATIVE sing. neuter it would reasonably tie in with touto, NOMINATIVE sing. masc.
Bottom line: this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God relates back to 'by grace you have been saved through faith.' This would concur with the rest of the verse, 'not of works, lest any man should boast.' We are saved by grace, not by works. 'Not of works' would then modify 'by grace you are saved through faith,' just as 'and that not of yourselves' would.
Comments are welcomed!
That is also the understanding I come to and thanks. The last time gift is used is in Reve 11:10
Reve 11:10 And those dwelling upon the land are joying over them and they shall be merrying and presents/gifts/dwra <1435> shall be sending to one-another, that these, the two Prophets torment the ones dwelling upon the land.
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quote FSTDT: From what I've seen, LLJ is a bit of a bible-quoting robot. Often he posts things in General Apologetics that are quite off-topic. At least he doesn't call Atheists deluded unlike most Christians. I think that he's too far gone to be saved at this point. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Hebrews 2:14Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood and He in like manner did partake to the same. That thru the Death He might take-away the one having the power of the Death, that is the Devil
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Yes, it is an opinion about the grammar. I have stated reasons for the opinion, and would welcome feedback or different opinions, I only ask that reasons for the opinion be stated. If you believe this opinion about the grammar to be in error, then pls. show the error. It is in this way that students can weed out error and discover the most accurate solution. Looking forward to feedback.
But what does it mean?
__________________ For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He justified also ; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
"We are like dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants. We see more, and things that are more distant, than they did, not because our sight is superior or because we are taller than they, but because they raise us up, and by their great stature add to ours." John of Salisbury, 1159
As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. Closing the gap between the God I want and the God who is. The same sun that melts the ice hardens the clay. Puritan saying I am doing better than I deserve. God is always bigger than our misunderstandings of Him.
I Cor. 2: 1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified 3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, 4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
We know that faith come by hearing. Faith is an assent to knowledge and a trust in the object of the information, in this case the gospel message and all its parts is the object, specifically Christ Himself. Had Paul delivered a message of philosophy, worldly wisdom, and they believed him - then the same faith that they believed in Christ with - would have been used to believe in the philosophy of this world.
Also, notice the following as Paul points out that the same saving faith people placed in Christ would be worthless if the Gospel were not true. Basically, had Paul preached the philosophies of the world and they had believed it then in this illustration if it did not happen would have placed their faith in a false object. Their saving faith would be worthless.
I Cor. 15: 12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins
Yes, faith comes from hearing and in this illustration Paul is using a negative approach to teach them that their saving faith which is a result of their hearing a message and trusting in it would be in vain. It stands that believing faith is not a special infused gift but a capacity that is exercised upon hearing and willfully trusting in the information acquired.
Critical Point: All passages on believing faith must be filtered by this truth:
Whenever we read a passage that talks of believing faith in any context we must take ourselves back to what Paul said, “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” thus saving faith can only come form truth that can produce such a result, if not Paul said it would be in vain, that’s right, their believing faith would be in vain.
Next, Which is it "believing faith or the content of faith / that which is the object and teaching associated with doctrinal truth about the Gospel.
With regards to Hebrews 12:2: Jesus is the author of faith. This is a fact. Does this mean that He give individuals a special infused gift of faith? No, it does not meant that. Christ being the author and finisher “of the faith”
2 ἀφορῶντες εἰς τὸν τῆς πίστεως ἀρχηγὸν καὶ τελειωτὴν Ἰησοῦν, Looking away unto the of the faith author and finisher Jesus
A correct translation would be “looking away unto Jesus, the author and finisher of the faith.”
The word our is not in the text and incorrectly inserted. Faith here is not saving faith but all that is contained in the Gospel that was believed, the information, life and work of Christ that accomplished for us the work whereby we could then trust in this faith. To say “our faith” is fine if it is understood in this context because that is what the Greek language supports. If anyone tells you different they are lying to you and trying to deceive you.
So That You Will Know:
The only variable that I know of is the last work in the verse. The MT has it as a imperfect active indicative and the minority text has it as an perfect active indicative.
Here is the difference is translation: Imperfect active indicative, “He was taking His seat” Majority text Perfect active indicative, “He has taken His seat” Minority text This information on this particular word has no impact on what I have presented on the word faith here in Hebrews 12:2.
__________________
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, thatwhoever believes inHim shall not perish, but have eternal life.
CURED
Conditional Salvation
Unlimited Atonement
Resistible Grace
Eternal Security
Delivered from trespasses & sin
Last edited by Benefactor; 29th August 2009 at 11:36 PM.
Ephes 2:8. For to the grace ye are having been saved/seswsmenoi <4982> (5772) thru the faith and this not from out of yeselves. Of God the gift
Ephesians 2:5 And us being dead to the offenses together-quickens us to the Christ. To grace ye are having been saved/seswsmenoi <4982> (5772)
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quote FSTDT: From what I've seen, LLJ is a bit of a bible-quoting robot. Often he posts things in General Apologetics that are quite off-topic. At least he doesn't call Atheists deluded unlike most Christians. I think that he's too far gone to be saved at this point. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Hebrews 2:14Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood and He in like manner did partake to the same. That thru the Death He might take-away the one having the power of the Death, that is the Devil
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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__________________ For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He justified also ; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
"We are like dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants. We see more, and things that are more distant, than they did, not because our sight is superior or because we are taller than they, but because they raise us up, and by their great stature add to ours." John of Salisbury, 1159
As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. Closing the gap between the God I want and the God who is. The same sun that melts the ice hardens the clay. Puritan saying I am doing better than I deserve. God is always bigger than our misunderstandings of Him.
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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quote FSTDT: From what I've seen, LLJ is a bit of a bible-quoting robot. Often he posts things in General Apologetics that are quite off-topic. At least he doesn't call Atheists deluded unlike most Christians. I think that he's too far gone to be saved at this point. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Hebrews 2:14Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood and He in like manner did partake to the same. That thru the Death He might take-away the one having the power of the Death, that is the Devil
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The most accurate response I could give grammatically would be that the phrase, 'and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God' directly relates back to the participle 'you have been saved' together with its modifiers. So it would read, You have been saved [by grace through faith]; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
I hope that clarifies. We are saved, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. We are saved by grace through faith.
__________________ "Study to show yourself approved unto God, a good workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15
The most accurate response I could give grammatically would be that the phrase, 'and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God' directly relates back to the participle 'you have been saved' together with its modifiers. So it would read, You have been saved [by grace through faith]; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
I hope that clarifies. We are saved, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.
I didn't realize that verse was so complicated to many. Is there some kind of controversy on it?
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GT Fundies. Who are they? To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
quote FSTDT: From what I've seen, LLJ is a bit of a bible-quoting robot. Often he posts things in General Apologetics that are quite off-topic. At least he doesn't call Atheists deluded unlike most Christians. I think that he's too far gone to be saved at this point. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Hebrews 2:14Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood and He in like manner did partake to the same. That thru the Death He might take-away the one having the power of the Death, that is the Devil
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