| Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums. |
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30th August 2009, 01:37 AM
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Reps: 18,889,155,825,852,136 (power: 18,889,155,825,864) | | Originally Posted by juvenissun  No. That is evolution, not creation.
Define creation. Why is the birthing of a new species via natural processes not creation, but the birthing of an individual via natural processes is creation?
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"There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well." -- creation scientist Dr. Todd Wood |
30th August 2009, 01:47 AM
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Reps: 29,076,752,156,125 (power: 29,076,752,159) | | | My prior post was misunderstood by some, so I'll try to speak in simpler terms.
By going off in tangents, I meant that people were calling everything from the heretic evolution theory to the birth of new men to the re-born Christian as meaning God is still creating.....
So I asked, in which way were you referring? By 'creating' are you meaning actual new creations (celestial bodies, living creatures...) or were you speaking in other terms?
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Romans 1:18(GB)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, which withold the truth in unrighteousness.
Proverbs 24:24-25 (GB)
He that saith to the wicked,"Thou art righteous", him shall the people curse, and the multitude shall abhor him. (25) But to them that rebuke him, shall be pleasure, and upon them shall come the blessing of goodness. |
30th August 2009, 04:56 AM
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30th August 2009, 05:09 AM
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Reps: 1,984,022,293,840,305,920 (power: 1,984,022,293,840,324) | | Originally Posted by juvenissun OK, I am not going to argue if God continues to create other things.
But, I think you agree that God continues to create brand new human beings, i.e. new people, infants. Right? So, everyone of us is created. Right?
Right. And some are even created twice.
2Cor 5:17(NASB) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
(ESV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Ever notice how 'a creature' can also be translated 'a creation'? That is what creature means. It is used for the old creation too.
Mark 16:15 (NASB) And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
(NET) He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Of course these are New Testament and Greek, but Hebrew uses the same word bara for the old creation as well as the new.
Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
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30th August 2009, 05:29 AM
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Reps: 1,984,022,293,840,305,920 (power: 1,984,022,293,840,324) | | Originally Posted by icamewithasword My prior post was misunderstood by some, so I'll try to speak in simpler terms.
By going off in tangents, I meant that people were calling everything from the heretic evolution theory to the birth of new men to the re-born Christian as meaning God is still creating.....
So I asked, in which way were you referring? By 'creating' are you meaning actual new creations (celestial bodies, living creatures...) or were you speaking in other terms?
OK lets have a look at your post. Originally Posted by icamewithasword This seems to go off in tangents....
Maybe best to define 'created'? As in, not to be confused with Jesus' miracles or the birth of my son 7 years ago.......
You need to be careful with definitions of create, I keep coming across Creationists defining the meaning of the Hebrew word bara, create. The problem is, their definition bears no resemblance to the way the bible uses the word bara. While creationist websites try to define create to exclude evolution, the bible is happy to use the word for everything God creates from the origin of the universe to the birth of your son, even a new blade of grass and the wind that blows across it.
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30th August 2009, 06:01 PM
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Reps: 44,404,246,110,554,912 (power: 44,404,246,110,568) | | Originally Posted by Mallon Define creation. Why is the birthing of a new species via natural processes not creation, but the birthing of an individual via natural processes is creation?
Good question. Assyrian held on the Hebrew word bara. But I like to go in a different way.
Creation means, there was not, but there is. That is the definition. In particular, when we look at it from the view of science.
Evolution is based on mutation. Mutation is a feature of reorganizing material. So, nothing is new as a result of evolution. Chimps are made of star dust, so are we. This is evolution.
But, you are an unique person, an unique identity on the time line. There was no Mallon, there is one and only one now, and there will be one and only one Mallon forever. This is, then, creation. |
30th August 2009, 06:11 PM
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Reps: 44,404,246,110,554,912 (power: 44,404,246,110,568) | | Originally Posted by Assyrian OK lets have a look at your post.
You need to be careful with definitions of create, I keep coming across Creationists defining the meaning of the Hebrew word bara, create. The problem is, their definition bears no resemblance to the way the bible uses the word bara. While creationist websites try to define create to exclude evolution, the bible is happy to use the word for everything God creates from the origin of the universe to the birth of your son, even a new blade of grass and the wind that blows across it.
So, we had a hurricane last month. And we have one again today. According to the meaning of bara, a new hurricane was created. I don't know if the word bara is used this way (I doubt it). But this is not the meaning of create in creationism.
The word bara is used in the Six-Day Creation (Gen 2:3), may be the whole creation will be repeated again? and again? |
30th August 2009, 06:29 PM
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Reps: 44,404,246,110,554,912 (power: 44,404,246,110,568) | | Originally Posted by Mick116 I suppose the fact that the universe continues to expand can be example of continuing creation.
Interesting. If that is true, then that particular ONE action of creation lasts so long indeed, and has not finished yet.
This is a hard one. Don't know what to say. |
30th August 2009, 06:44 PM
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Reps: 18,889,155,825,852,136 (power: 18,889,155,825,864) | | Originally Posted by juvenissun Good question. Assyrian held on the Hebrew word bara. But I like to go in a different way.
Creation means, there was not, but there is. That is the definition. In particular, when we look at it from the view of science.
Evolution is based on mutation. Mutation is a feature of reorganizing material. So, nothing is new as a result of evolution. Chimps are made of star dust, so are we. This is evolution.
But, you are an unique person, an unique identity on the time line. There was no Mallon, there is one and only one now, and there will be one and only one Mallon forever. This is, then, creation.
The same argument applies to speciation, juvie. Whereas there was once no species x, now there is. In your attempt to redefine creation so as to exclude evolution, your argument just becomes incoherent.
(Also, the conception of an individual involves the combining and reorganization of the same genetic material upon which natural selection acts to produce speciation. So your argument fails at this level, too.)
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"There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well." -- creation scientist Dr. Todd Wood |
30th August 2009, 07:51 PM
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Reps: 79,116,507,165 (power: 79,116,511) | | Originally Posted by juvenissun I am saying, everyone, Christian or not, is a new creation.
Yeah, but I was drawing reference to a specific verse
2Cor 5:17
"So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away" | | |
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