The discussion of health care/welfare is really a discussion of Socialism.
An issue that I believe Socialist are not honest about is the issue of dealing with evil. I believe Socialists avoid dealing with evil because it requires making a judgement about what is good and what is evil. Socialists would like to believe it is impossible to distinguish good and evil, but the Bible is a perfect bases for an evaluation of what is good and evil. Also, it is obvious that something is evil when the physical reality of disease, death and destruction occur. The Bible gives advanced warning of evil and physical reality is the confirmation.
Socialists would like to imply everything is gray and definitely not black and white. Socialists come up with all kinds of excuses for poverty, but will never admit that most poverty is caused by wilful disobedience of the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.
I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - rebuke it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.
The first two are from the New Testament of the Bible and represent the Law of Love. The third is from the Old Testament of the Bible and represents the Law of Purity/Self Defense. The New Testament deals more with personal responsibility and the Old Testament deals more with the preservation of society. The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world.
In the discussion of health care/welfare, Socialists are quick to praise Socialistic nations for what they do and the results of what they do, however Socialists try to hid what they do to deal with evil. An example is the restrictive immigration policy of many countries. By restrictive immigration policies the society is kept monolithic to reduce cultural disharmony. Socialists say everyone is covered by health care in their country, but then is found that health care rationing and cost controls do occur through government organizations and economic evaluations. The only thing that seems to be true is that most people accept the rationing.
I really say the above not as a criticism of other countries, but rather to bring reality to the discussion of health care/welfare change in America. If only the good of Socialism is presented then America will make a bad mistake changing from Capitalism to Socialism.
America has some very major problems. America is not the melting pot that everyone had hoped for. There are at least three major ethnic groups that have different lifestyles. America is in a Cultural War between Christians and Atheists. The freedom that everyone wants in America is destroying America.
In the past, America was physically free, but spiritually a slave to God. The physical was constrained by the spiritual so that things worked. Now that the spiritual constraints are being removed, evil is flourishing in America. Along with the evil flourishing, the costs of health care/welfare are exploding.
Some may even be happy that America is failing, but those people had better remember that America has rescued many nations from the tyranny of ruthless dictators that hate democracy.
I would like to hear an honest evacuation of Socialist nations as to how they deal with evil. I believe evil will overcome good if there is not action to restrain evil. This is consistent with the old saying, "The only thing necessary for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing."
Let me ask some specific questions of Socialist countries.
How do Socialist countries deal with men that will not support their children? In America the government is swamped with health care/welfare costs associated with illegitimate children.
How do Socialist countries deal with social disharmony issues such as immigration? Many countries in Europe issued guest worker visas but not cannot get the workers to leave now that the prosperity has ended. America has that problem, plus the problem of illegal immigration.
Do Socialistic countries make any child born in the country an automatic citizen?
Are health care/welfare services the same for citizens and non citizens?
What is the health care/welfare policy on preventable diseases such as AIDS and STDS?
What is the health care/welfare policy on preventable conditions such as obesity?
Are educational programs used to impose healthy lifestyles?
Are there restrictions on law suits against government, medicine and businesses?
The discussion of health care/welfare is really a discussion of Socialism.
No, it isn't.
An issue that I believe Socialist are not honest about is the issue of dealing with evil. I believe Socialists avoid dealing with evil because it requires making a judgement about what is good and what is evil. Socialists would like to believe it is impossible to distinguish good and evil, but the Bible is a perfect bases for an evaluation of what is good and evil. Also, it is obvious that something is evil when the physical reality of disease, death and destruction occur. The Bible gives advanced warning of evil and physical reality is the confirmation.
Socialists would like to imply everything is gray and definitely not black and white. Socialists come up with all kinds of excuses for poverty, but will never admit that most poverty is caused by wilful disobedience of the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.
I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - rebuke it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.
The first two are from the New Testament of the Bible and represent the Law of Love. The third is from the Old Testament of the Bible and represents the Law of Purity/Self Defense. The New Testament deals more with personal responsibility and the Old Testament deals more with the preservation of society. The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world.
In the discussion of health care/welfare, Socialists are quick to praise Socialistic nations for what they do and the results of what they do, however Socialists try to hid what they do to deal with evil. An example is the restrictive immigration policy of many countries. By restrictive immigration policies the society is kept monolithic to reduce cultural disharmony. Socialists say everyone is covered by health care in their country, but then is found that health care rationing and cost controls do occur through government organizations and economic evaluations. The only thing that seems to be true is that most people accept the rationing.
I really say the above not as a criticism of other countries, but rather to bring reality to the discussion of health care/welfare change in America. If only the good of Socialism is presented then America will make a bad mistake changing from Capitalism to Socialism.
America has some very major problems. America is not the melting pot that everyone had hoped for. There are at least three major ethnic groups that have different lifestyles. America is in a Cultural War between Christians and Atheists. The freedom that everyone wants in America is destroying America.
In the past, America was physically free, but spiritually a slave to God. The physical was constrained by the spiritual so that things worked. Now that the spiritual constraints are being removed, evil is flourishing in America. Along with the evil flourishing, the costs of health care/welfare are exploding.
Some may even be happy that America is failing, but those people had better remember that America has rescued many nations from the tyranny of ruthless dictators that hate democracy.
I would like to hear an honest evacuation of Socialist nations as to how they deal with evil. I believe evil will overcome good if there is not action to restrain evil. This is consistent with the old saying, "The only thing necessary for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing."
Let me ask some specific questions of Socialist countries.
How do Socialist countries deal with men that will not support their children? In America the government is swamped with health care/welfare costs associated with illegitimate children.
How do Socialist countries deal with social disharmony issues such as immigration? Many countries in Europe issued guest worker visas but not cannot get the workers to leave now that the prosperity has ended. America has that problem, plus the problem of illegal immigration.
Do Socialistic countries make any child born in the country an automatic citizen?
Are health care/welfare services the same for citizens and non citizens?
What is the health care/welfare policy on preventable diseases such as AIDS and STDS?
What is the health care/welfare policy on preventable conditions such as obesity?
Are educational programs used to impose healthy lifestyles?
Are there restrictions on law suits against government, medicine and businesses?
Virtually none of this made sense and some of it was actually the exact opposite of reality.
Virtually none of this made sense and some of it was actually the exact opposite of reality.
Ah I see you've met Clirus.
__________________
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Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.
But it is also true that, though sound argument and a reasonable appreciation of the available evidence may happen sometimes to lead to false conclusions, no man who is indifferent to argument and evidence can claim to be concerned for truth...It is also true that to tolerate contradiction is similarly to be indifferent to truth. For the person who, whether directly or by implication, knowingly both asserts and denies one and the same proposition, shows by that behaviour that he does not care whether he asserts what is false, and not true, or whether he denies what is true, and not false.
- Antony Flew
The discussion of health care/welfare is really a discussion of Socialism.
An issue that I believe Socialist are not honest about is the issue of dealing with evil. I believe Socialists avoid dealing with evil because it requires making a judgement about what is good and what is evil. Socialists would like to believe it is impossible to distinguish good and evil, but the Bible is a perfect bases for an evaluation of what is good and evil. Also, it is obvious that something is evil when the physical reality of disease, death and destruction occur. The Bible gives advanced warning of evil and physical reality is the confirmation.
Socialists would like to imply everything is gray and definitely not black
Everything is a shade of grey. Nothing is black and white. We can't even be black and white on the issue of life and death, let alone issues concerning what happends in between.
Let me ask some specific questions of Socialist countries.
What countries are socialist? I live in the Netherlands, it would seem our society is more socialist than yours, but i wouldn't call my country a socialist country. American society has enough socialistic properties, as does Dutch society have enough capitalistic properties. I don't think there ever has been a pure socialist or capitalist country. It's neither black nor white, it's certain shades of gray.
How do Socialist countries deal with men that will not support their children? In America the government is swamped with health care/welfare costs associated with illegitimate children.
How do Socialist countries deal with social disharmony issues such as immigration? Many countries in Europe issued guest worker visas but not cannot get the workers to leave now that the prosperity has ended. America has that problem, plus the problem of illegal immigration.
Do Socialistic countries make any child born in the country an automatic citizen?
Are health care/welfare services the same for citizens and non citizens?
What is the health care/welfare policy on preventable diseases such as AIDS and STDS?
What is the health care/welfare policy on preventable conditions such as obesity?
Are educational programs used to impose healthy lifestyles?
Are there restrictions on law suits against government, medicine and businesses?
These are all fine questions, but what do you *really* want to know?
__________________ The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones.
What countries are socialist? I live in the Netherlands, it would seem our society is more socialist than yours, but i wouldn't call my country a socialist country. American society has enough socialistic properties, as does Dutch society have enough capitalistic properties. I don't think there ever has been a pure socialist or capitalist country. It's neither black nor white, it's certain shades of gray.
It makes life a lot easier if you just accept that on CF, "socialist" really means "Anyone politically to the left of Margaret Thatcher"
Originally Posted by clirus
I would like to hear an honest evacuation of Socialist nations...
Didn't East Germany build a wall to prevent an honest evacuation of their nation?
Your post was a bit disjointed, and I'm not sure quite what you're actually getting at.
Is this another one of those dicussions that will generate into:
Clirus: "Atheism causes death and disease"
Evidence: "No it doesn't"
These are all fine questions, but what do you *really* want to know?
Response
I believe the present health care system in America uses economics (Capitalism) to ration health care. I believe the health care in all countries is rationed one way or another, because there is no way that the government can give the people everything they want, particularly in the health care/welfare area.
The ideal system is where everyone does everything possible to prevent health care problems and uses health care as little as possible. Since I do not believe that will ever occur even amongst Christians, then there will have to be rationing of some type.
America is considering a change to a much more socialistic system, but a lot of people think that means they will everything they want but there will be no rationing.
The questions I posed are the issues that will make it very hard for a more socialistic system to be implemented in America. Some think other countries have resolved these problems and I want to know how they have been resolved.
Can America go from having a health care system that offers unlimited health care if you can afford it, to a health care system that offers unlimited health care even though you can not afford it, through government subsidies.
I believe the health care system of other countries is limited health care at an affordable price through price controls and reduced expectations.
I question that America can ever go from unlimited health care to limited health care. Even the health care systems of other countries are having a hard time controlling the expectations of the people.
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