The discussion of health care/welfare is really a discussion of Socialism.
An issue that I believe Socialist are not honest about is the issue of dealing with evil. I believe Socialists avoid dealing with evil because it requires making a judgement about what is good and what is evil. Socialists would like to believe it is impossible to distinguish good and evil, but the Bible is a perfect bases for an evaluation of what is good and evil. Also, it is obvious that something is evil when the physical reality of disease, death and destruction occur. The Bible gives advanced warning of evil and physical reality is the confirmation.
Socialists would like to imply everything is gray and definitely not black and white. Socialists come up with all kinds of excuses for poverty, but will never admit that most poverty is caused by wilful disobedience of the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.
I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - rebuke it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.
The first two are from the New Testament of the Bible and represent the Law of Love. The third is from the Old Testament of the Bible and represents the Law of Purity/Self Defense. The New Testament deals more with personal responsibility and the Old Testament deals more with the preservation of society. The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world.
In the discussion of health care/welfare, Socialists are quick to praise Socialistic nations for what they do and the results of what they do, however Socialists try to hid what they do to deal with evil. An example is the restrictive immigration policy of many countries. By restrictive immigration policies the society is kept monolithic to reduce cultural disharmony. Socialists say everyone is covered by health care in their country, but then is found that health care rationing and cost controls do occur through government organizations and economic evaluations. The only thing that seems to be true is that most people accept the rationing.
I really say the above not as a criticism of other countries, but rather to bring reality to the discussion of health care/welfare change in America. If only the good of Socialism is presented then America will make a bad mistake changing from Capitalism to Socialism.
America has some very major problems. America is not the melting pot that everyone had hoped for. There are at least three major ethnic groups that have different lifestyles. America is in a Cultural War between Christians and Atheists. The freedom that everyone wants in America is destroying America.
In the past, America was physically free, but spiritually a slave to God. The physical was constrained by the spiritual so that things worked. Now that the spiritual constraints are being removed, evil is flourishing in America. Along with the evil flourishing, the costs of health care/welfare are exploding.
Some may even be happy that America is failing, but those people had better remember that America has rescued many nations from the tyranny of ruthless dictators that hate democracy.
I would like to hear an honest evacuation of Socialist nations as to how they deal with evil. I believe evil will overcome good if there is not action to restrain evil. This is consistent with the old saying, "The only thing necessary for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing."
Let me ask some specific questions of Socialist countries.
How do Socialist countries deal with men that will not support their children? In America the government is swamped with health care/welfare costs associated with illegitimate children.
How do Socialist countries deal with social disharmony issues such as immigration? Many countries in Europe issued guest worker visas but not cannot get the workers to leave now that the prosperity has ended. America has that problem, plus the problem of illegal immigration.
Do Socialistic countries make any child born in the country an automatic citizen?
Are health care/welfare services the same for citizens and non citizens?
What is the health care/welfare policy on preventable diseases such as AIDS and STDS?
What is the health care/welfare policy on preventable conditions such as obesity?
Are educational programs used to impose healthy lifestyles?
Are there restrictions on law suits against government, medicine and businesses?
You would have been better off making a case against a truer evil entity like the greedy capitalist health insurance companies who aren't even subject to anti trust laws. The truth is men are more evil than good so it wouldn't matter what system is in place as long as there are evil men corrupting the system.
And by the way, evil has always flourished in America...I guess Slavey doesn't count in your America.
Virtually none of this made sense and some of it was actually the exact opposite of reality.
yet you did not elaborate. You didn't read the OP's entire post, did you?
__________________
"Prove all things;
hold fast that which is good.
Abstain from all appearance of evil."
~1 Thessalonians 5:21-22
posted by ViaCrucis:
It's not even "too much Old Testament", in the Old Testament God is compassionate, shows mercy, is patient and long-suffering. Consider the lesson we learn from Jonah, or the word delivered to Ezekiel that God does not desire the death of the wicked, that God takes no pleasure or joy in the destruction of the wicked by desires that that the wicked repent and change their ways so they might live and have life. God has always been a merciful, compassionate, kind and patient God who has no desire for the destruction of the wicked, who has loving-kindness for the sinner and for the wicked person to change their ways and truly live and have life. -CryptoLutheran
Well we could determine who will be evil before they have the opportunity to be evil then put a bullet in the back of their heads. You can tell of course by the shape of people's noses and certain birthmarks if they are going to be evil or not. We shall start by snuffing out those ones first.
we do. it's called abortion.
__________________
"Prove all things;
hold fast that which is good.
Abstain from all appearance of evil."
~1 Thessalonians 5:21-22
posted by ViaCrucis:
It's not even "too much Old Testament", in the Old Testament God is compassionate, shows mercy, is patient and long-suffering. Consider the lesson we learn from Jonah, or the word delivered to Ezekiel that God does not desire the death of the wicked, that God takes no pleasure or joy in the destruction of the wicked by desires that that the wicked repent and change their ways so they might live and have life. God has always been a merciful, compassionate, kind and patient God who has no desire for the destruction of the wicked, who has loving-kindness for the sinner and for the wicked person to change their ways and truly live and have life. -CryptoLutheran
but will never admit that most poverty is caused by wilful disobedience of the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.
What?! I don't mean to be rude but that is just absurd. Whatever happened to "blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God" ? It's not "cursed are the poor for they are poor due to their own sinfulness"
__________________
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"The Devil cunningly induces us- instead of arousing us against himself-to notice our neighbors' sins, to make us spiteful and angry with others, and to awaken our contempt twoard them, thus keeping us in enmity with them, and with the Lord God himself."
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What?! I don't mean to be rude but that is just absurd. Whatever happened to "blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God" ? It's not "cursed are the poor for they are poor due to their own sinfulness"
The Bible says "poor in spirit" yet many want the Bible to say, "poor in wealth"
There is a major difference between "poor in spirit" and "poor in wealth". The Bible says the spiritual things are good and the physical things are evil.
I do believe the Bible teaches most people are poor due to their own sinfulness.
Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Hush little baby, don`t you cry
You know your mama was born to die
All my trials, Lord, soon be over
Too late, my brothers
Too late, but never mind
All my trials, Lord, soon be over
If religion were a thing that money could buy
The rich would live and the poor would die
All my trials, Lord, soon be over
I`ve got a little book that was given to me
And every page spells liberty
All my trials, Lord, soon be over
There is a tree in Paradise
The pilgrims call it the tree of life
All my trials, Lord, soon be over
__________________ - Daisy
If such people were amenable to facts, they would have gotten the point long ago...Whatever it is that is blocking the understanding of the "denialist", it is not access to facts or information. The blockage is most likely emotional, possibly based on fear, and one does not most effectively deal with emotional barriers by using facts as instruments of assault and battery. - Dan Murphy
You would have been better off making a case against a truer evil entity like the greedy capitalist health insurance companies who aren't even subject to anti trust laws. The truth is men are more evil than good so it wouldn't matter what system is in place as long as there are evil men corrupting the system.
And by the way, evil has always flourished in America...I guess Slavey doesn't count in your America.
threedog
Yes greedy capitalists are evil, but are all capitalists greedy?
Yes, the Bible teaches that man is born with a sin nature, so men are more evil than good.
There will always be evil men corrupting any system, and that is why we need the commandments/doctrines of the Bible to determine if a person is good or evil. I believe most poverty is caused by people not following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.
The following is an example of what the Bible says is good and what is evil.
Galatians 5:19-23, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkness, revellings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in the time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. — But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
Slavery was a great evil in America and America made Slavery illegal.
Pornography, abortion and homosexual activity is a great evil and needs to be made illegal again.
Slavery is not biblically evil, so you seem to be making a judgement outside of God's Word.
__________________ - Daisy
If such people were amenable to facts, they would have gotten the point long ago...Whatever it is that is blocking the understanding of the "denialist", it is not access to facts or information. The blockage is most likely emotional, possibly based on fear, and one does not most effectively deal with emotional barriers by using facts as instruments of assault and battery. - Dan Murphy
Last edited by DaisyDay; 10th November 2009 at 01:49 PM.
Reason: changed "contrary to" to "outside of"
The Bible says "poor in spirit" yet many want the Bible to say, "poor in wealth"
There is a major difference between "poor in spirit" and "poor in wealth". The Bible says the spiritual things are good and the physical things are evil.
I do believe the Bible teaches most people are poor due to their own sinfulness.
Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Problem is, you're confusing yourself in what is "of this earth" and "of the spirit" - there are profoundly poor (in wealth) Christians all over the world, but who follow the teachings in the Bible. Yes, even in the "socialist" UK.
What kind of "death" are you quoting in Romans 6:23? It's certainly nothing to do with how poor anyone is financially.