Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
If you want to have a discussion, you have to use the same language as everyone else.
__________________ Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
You may think not all you want, but I've yet to have a single Christian explain why the U.S., a considerably more fervent Christian nation than more 1st world countries, has generally worse social issues than less Christian nations.
For two reasons.
The first is that we're only a Christian nation inasfar as our nation was founded on Christian principles. We're not a Christian nation in the sense that we're a theocracy or that the majority of our citizens are Christians.
We don't live by Christian principles and our government does not operate on Christian principles.
Perhaps if we did, then you could make that argument.
The second is that Christianity is not a cure for social ills. It was never meant to be. It is God's means of forgiving and reconciling sinners to Himself, but it isn't as though once someone or a group become Christians, everything is happiness and sunshine.
For example, the Christian church is thriving in places like Sudan, India, and China, and yet conditions in those places are horrible, not because there are not Christians there, but because men are sinners and mankind is under a curse.
The first is that we're only a Christian nation inasfar as our nation was founded on Christian principles.
I don't believe this is true. The Treaty of Tripoli, for example, specifically states the US is not founded on Christianity.
We're not a Christian nation in the sense that we're a theocracy or that the majority of our citizens are Christians.
But the majority of your population identifies as such. And the Christian religion plays a *huge* role in American politics. Moreso than most if not all other 1st-world nations.
The second is that Christianity is not a cure for social ills. It was never meant to be. It is God's means of forgiving and reconciling sinners to Himself, but it isn't as though once someone or a group become Christians, everything is happiness and sunshine.
Plenty of evangelicals use social ills as an argument for Christianity; implying that everything would be better if everyone would just become Christians.* It's patently obvious this is false, but that doesn't stop people from making that argument. Like I said, you guys should get together and figure this out before aruging with non-believers.
* edited to add: Plenty of politicians also run on "family-values" platforms, exulting the benefits of a moral Christian lifestyle.
__________________ Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
Last edited by Pete Harcoff; 23rd August 2009 at 12:44 PM.
Fair enough. I've had answers before to the question, but nothing that really explains the data. I don't consider "Satandidit" to be an explanation; it's too ad-hoc. You might as well as say it's because of the flying spaghetti monster or invisible moon bunnies or insert whatever you want here.
__________________ Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
I don't believe this is true. The Treaty of Tripoli, for example, specifically states the US is not founded on Christianity.
No, the Treaty of Tripoli states that we're not a theocracy. There is a big difference.
All one has to do is to look at the founding documents of our nation and the writings and speeches of the Founders, as well as the SCOTUS decision in the Trinity case to see that we were founded on Christian principles.
But the majority of your population identifies as such.
And the majority of baby boomers claim to have been at Woodstock. Saying you're a Christian doesn't make you one.
And the Christian religion plays a *huge* role in American politics.
For example?
Plenty of evangelicals use social ills as an argument for Christianity; implying that everything would be better if everyone would just become Christians.
Then they don't understand what the Bible says about Christianity.
Like I said, you guys should get together and figure this out before aruging with non-believers.
There's nothing to figure out. We Christians know what the Bible says but that doesn't mean we can't stop fake Christians or ignorant Christians from saying things the Bible doesn't say.
No, the Treaty of Tripoli states that we're not a theocracy.
All one has to do is to look at the founding documents of our nation and the writings and speeches of the Founders, as well as the SCOTUS decision in the Trinity case to see that we were founded on Christian principles.
Fair enough. I can actually see where you are coming from on this. But I don't think that's enough to qualify the US as a "Christian" nation.
And the majority of baby boomers claim to have been at Woodstock. Saying you're a Christian doesn't make you one.
Self-identification of Christians is pretty much the only way to identify them, though.
For example?
Gay marriage, abortion, sex ed, teaching of evolution, etc.
There's nothing to figure out. We Christians know what the Bible says but that doesn't mean we can't stop fake Christians or ignorant Christians from saying things the Bible doesn't say.
Do you understand how confusing it is to a non-believer to see Christians accusing each other of not being Christians? If someone came along and said they were a Christian and that what you are telling me means you aren't, am I to believe them instead?
__________________ Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
Self-identification of Christians is pretty much the only way to identify them, though.
That's funny, Jesus Christ, the spiritual authority for which Christians are named, said otherwise. In the same chapter you cited earlier, it was Christ who said that not everyone who calls Him Lord belongs to Him.
Gay marriage, abortion, sex ed, teaching of evolution, etc.
What about them?
Do you understand how confusing it is to a non-believer to see Christians accusing each other of not being Christians?
Do you understand how quickly your confusion would be cleared up if you would crack open a Bible and look at the criteria it lists in order for someone to be considered a Christian?
If someone came along and said they were a Christian and that what you are telling me means you aren't, am I to believe them instead?
You could believe them or you could go to the Bible and look at the criteria laid out there that defines what a Christian is and judge me and my words by that standard.
That's funny, Jesus Christ, the spiritual authority for which Christians are named, said otherwise. In the same chapter you cited earlier, it was Christ who said that not everyone who calls Him Lord belongs to Him.
Yes, yes, but I'm talking about self-identification of Christians to other people, not Jesus. I'm not Jesus, you're not Jesus, the person down the street isn't Jesus. So we can only really rely on self-identification.
What about them?
Oh come now. You're telling me you don't know how religion plays a role in political issues like abortion or gay marriage?
Do you understand how quickly your confusion would be cleared up if you would crack open a Bible and look at the criteria it lists in order for someone to be considered a Christian?
I assume you are talking about Matthew 7? If you ask me, that only muddies things further.
__________________ Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
--- Have you heard this before, or haven't you?
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