Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
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Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God.
This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man," and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., "I am."
Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29).
Thus, Christians conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God.
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Originally Posted by scriptures
Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man," and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., "I am."
Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29).
Thus, Christians conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God.
Yes. Also when we want to confirm that it were we we say "I am" or "I was" (in any case in our language) and that does not make us God.
Jesus simply uses the present tense of the verb "to be"
Jesus also did not say that he was before Abraham. Jesus was foreordained. He was the result of the word made flesh, not the originator of the divine plan.
“Jesus said to them: “If your Father was The God you would likely continue to love me. For I came out from The God and [then] I arrived. Nor did I come from myself, but that One sent me forth.” (Joh 8:42 MHM)
Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God.
This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man," and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., "I am."
Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29).
Thus, Christians conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God.
Jesus is God incarnate, the Son of God.
Getting caught up in semantics and arguing about various sematical issues doesn't really help anything.
Jesus is how anyone sees God, at all. Look back at the Prophets and Moses. They saw God. They saw Jesus when they did so.
What could anyone's problem with that be?
Jesus pointed out that the Pharisees should have no problem with him calling himself "the Son of God", saying God called "gods" those by whom the word of God came.
Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God.
This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man," and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., "I am."
Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29).
Thus, Christians conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God.
I am trinitarian (although that is the first ime I called myself that), and I agree, in that verse Jesus does not say He is the "I AM". He IS saying He existed before Abraham. I think the verse in context says that Abraham was looking forward to Christ coming upon the Earth: 56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
I believe in a triune God not because of one verse but because of what was prophesied, what Jesus did, what Jesus said, and the fact that He will judge you and me. All those things together point to Jesus being God.
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
But this is pretty convincing to me.
Though He had existed as God, He let go of His God nature to become wholly man
Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God.
This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man," and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., "I am."
Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29).
Thus, Christians conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God.
Trinitarians -- as has been said -- do not make this verse the final answer to the question of Jesus' divinity, nor do they pin everything on some other verse. Anti-Trinitarians often seem to pick out one verse, attempt to debunk it alone, and then proclain that that which Trinitarians base their belief on is rebutted.
In this case, I would agree that there are places in Scripture in which the words "I (and) am" appear without proving anything. But Jesus' use of the term was meant in a completely different way than when Paul said it or as we'd use it in ordinary speech. In fact, in the passage in question, Jesus' use of the words would be considered awkward, mysterious, unnatural if it were not a double entendre. And againt, that's again not the case with the other examples you gave.
Trinitarians -- as has been said -- do not make this verse the final answer to the question of Jesus' divinity, nor do they pin everything on some other verse. Anti-Trinitarians often seem to pick out one verse, attempt to debunk it alone, and then proclain that that which Trinitarians base their belief on is rebutted.
In this case, I would agree that there are places in Scripture in which the words "I (and) am" appear without proving anything. But Jesus' use of the term was meant in a completely different way than when Paul said it or as we'd use it in ordinary speech. In fact, in the passage in question, Jesus' use of the words would be considered awkward, mysterious, unnatural if it were not a double entendre. And againt, that's again not the case with the other examples you gave.
I believe as you do, but I do not depend on that or any one verse to prove Jesus deity. He's "the Man" and God.
While you do bring up a logical point regarding this text, this text does not disapprove trinitarianism. All it proves is that Jesus stated he was alive before Abraham.
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But a point is missed in the context... why would the jews attempt to stone for saying what he was saying. he was claiming deity when said I AM. the context would make no sense after 8:58 because the jews are looking for any reason to put him to death simply say he was alive before abraham would have relegated him to position of crazy man saying before abraham was I AM is a statement the jews saw as blasphemy.
__________________ 'fear God and keep his commandments.'
Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God.
This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man," and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., "I am."
Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29).
Thus, Christians conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God.
Again, you are ignoring language to support your own ideas. Why would the Jews want to stone someone for saying 'I am' unless it had divine implications?
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"Offense" is something TAKEN. No one MAKES anyone feel anything. IF we are offended by something, we CHOSE to be offended by it...
But I think that OFTEN, people confuse discussion with fighting. Disagreeing is not personal, it is not an attack, it is not disrespectful or flaming, it is not offensive per se. It ONLY means, "I disagree." Nothing more. Nothing less. It suggests NO emotional response whatsoever.
NO ONE is mandated to agree with anyone.
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