John 8:58 and Trinitarians.

Spartan Warrior · #**311** 4th November 2009, 07:25 PM

It is soooo simple. God is one. (That is a scriptural fact) Not three persons.

Unless you can show me using God's Word not your spin that God is made up of three persons you have nothing to say. So why should I bother.

If you cannot prove God is three persons YOU HAVE NO TRINITY.

Originally Posted by Der Alter

You did not even read the post or address anything in it. All I see is some version of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" The scripture I quoted and referenced, show that the father, the son, and the holy spirit are all called or referred to as God and that each one has a distinct self, mind, and will. Saying hogwash does NOT address anything.

Der Alter · #**312** 5th November 2009, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan Warrior

It is soooo simple. God is one. (That is a scriptural fact) Not three persons.

Unless you can show me using God's Word not your spin that God is made up of three persons you have nothing to say. So why should I bother.

If you cannot prove God is three persons YOU HAVE NO TRINITY.

I just did dood, I proved the Trinity, with nothing but scripture. No spin, nothing but the word of God and you can't handle it. All you can do is ignore the word of God, and repeat over and over and over, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!

Detai · #**313** 5th November 2009, 09:42 AM

Godfixated · #**314** 5th November 2009, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Der Alter

I just did dood, I proved the Trinity, with nothing but scripture. No spin, nothing but the word of God and you can't handle it. All you can do is ignore the word of God, and repeat over and over and over, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!

Are you kidding me?! You have proved absolutely nothing and you have used history more than Scripture. You have also failed to ever explain these two verses, as every body else has failed to explain them: James 1:13, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" and Hebrews 4:15, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." God cannot be tempted with; however Jesus was tempted with evil just as we are. So, how can Jesus be God if God cannot be tempted with evil. I know you will probably ignore this just like all you Trinitarians have so far in this thread.

Here is a bonus, I will even highlight it for you: Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" and Matthew 16:13, "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"

These verses provide more evidence against the trinity than any verse or ECF that you have quoted. I have quoted these arguments and verses probably ten times in this and other threads and not one person has addressed them.

gort · #**315** 6th November 2009, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Godfixated

Are you kidding me?! You have proved absolutely nothing and you have used history more than Scripture. You have also failed to ever explain these two verses, as every body else has failed to explain them: James 1:13, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" and Hebrews 4:15, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." God cannot be tempted with; however Jesus was tempted with evil just as we are. So, how can Jesus be God if God cannot be tempted with evil. I know you will probably ignore this just like all you Trinitarians have so far in this thread.

Here is a bonus, I will even highlight it for you: Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" and Matthew 16:13, "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"

These verses provide more evidence against the trinity than any verse or ECF that you have quoted. I have quoted these arguments and verses probably ten times in this and other threads and not one person has addressed them.

Pardone for butting in, but I've dealt with others as you in the same question you pose concerning God and temptation.. It's actually your error. YOu see, Israel tempted God. You'll find it in the OT. I won't find it for you. You'll see that God was tempted.

Spartan Warrior · #**316** 7th November 2009, 12:16 AM

Handle what? You proved NOTHING.

Is not the trinity made up of three persons, this is the foundation of whole false doctrine?

Oh sure you used scripture to back up what you believe is the trinity; but you did not prove the doctrine of the trinity because you did not show me one verse that said anything about God is made up of "three persons". Until you can prove using scripture God is three persons you have no trinity. So stop spinning and show me using God's Word that God is made up of three person; if you can't you're verses have proven "NOTHING".

Originally Posted by Der Alter

I just did dood, I proved the Trinity, with nothing but scripture. No spin, nothing but the word of God and you can't handle it. All you can do is ignore the word of God, and repeat over and over and over, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!

RibI · #**317** 7th November 2009, 09:11 AM

There is a damnable lie out there that nearly all professing Christians believe. It’s known as the trinity doctrine. This teachinglimits God...and denies His plan for a family.

The catholic encyclopedia explains it this way. (and who would know more about the trinity than the Catholics, after all they invented it) and I quote...
“The trinity is unalterableforever.” That means that it’s sealed, closed, unable to grow.

The article gives no biblical reason for believing it, but if you don’t believe it, you’re going to hell... I guess it doesn’t have to make sense.

The trinity is a GIANT lie, that if believed, won’t let you understand the truth about God or the truth of God.

When Jesus came in the flesh, He revealed the Father... In Jo. 1:18 says “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him”. Before that time God the Father was unknown to mankind in general.

Here Jesus reveals the Father, if the Holy Spirit was a 3rd individual in the Godhead, this was certainly the time to reveal him too...Don’t you think?

In Jo.1 Starting in verse 1 we read...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {this was another ideal time to tell us about this 3rd individual if it was true}

The greeting “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”... or something similar to this is used by Paul in Romans... 1st and 2nd Corinthians...Galatians...Ephesians...Philippians...Colossians...1st and 2nd Thessalonians...1st and 2nd Timothy...Titus...and Philemon. Similar greetings are given in James, 1st John, 2nd John...Jude...and Revelation. All of these can be found within the first 7 verses of these books.

These all seem to me like ideal times to have mentioned the 3rd member of a trinity if one existed, but nothing! You reckon they forgot?

In the 4th and 5th chapters of Rev. there is quite a description of “The Throne Room in Heaven.” In this description we see God on His throne, 24 elders on their thrones, 4 living creatures, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ receiving the prophecy of all prophecies. It seems everyone of importance was there at this most important event.

Everyone that is, except the Holy Spirit. Do those who teach the trinity think his invitation got lost in the Mail or something?

Now the trinitarian idea has been around for a long time in pagan religions, around the world….. It didn’t really get started good in Christendom until 325 A.D. at the council of Nicaea. This council wasn’t called by the religious leaders of the day but by the Pagan Emperor Constantine. His only concern was to quell a dispute among the people, so he wouldn’t have riots on his hands. He wasn’t concerned about truth being taught in the church.

Some cite parts of 1Jo. 5:7-8 which no reliable manuscript contains. 1Jo.5:7-8 should read 7 For there are three that bear witness the Spirit the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

{Of course they agree. The water represents our baptisms, the blood cleanses us of our sins, and God gives us His Spirit to help us along the way. All three are major factors in our conversion. Of course they agree!}

The words added to 1Jo.5:7-8 were added to the margin of the Latin Vulgate in about 545 A.D. then into Greek in about 1215A.D. The added words are totally bogus. They’re meant to lead people into the false doctrine of the trinity.

By the time the KJV was published, the people who worked on it were so steeped in the trinity doctrine, that they thought they’d help God out by referring to the Holy Spirit as he, or him, or himself.

In Greek, as in some other languages nouns are assigned gender, although the gender assigned to something doesn’t mean that, that particular thing is male or female.

It’s a grammatical thing that’s foreign to those of us who only speak English.

Now in the N.T. the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God is referred to 107 times by my count and 102 are assigned the neuter status...or IT status, if you will.

Five times John uses a term that was assigned a masculine gender. This word is translated “The Comforter.”

On top of that, the Hebrew word used in the O.T. is assigned a feminine gender...How does that work? For 3/4 of the Bible the Holy Spirit is a female?...and then in the last 1/4 of the Bible, (because of a word use 5 times that’s assigned a masculine gender) it’s a male?

I guess it doesn’t have to make sense.

So basically, they have taken a few words that were added hundreds of years after the Bible was written, and 5 out of 107 references to the Holy Spirit in the N.T. that were assigned a masculine gender in Greek and built a false doctrine on it.

The Gregorian · #**318** 14th November 2009, 09:42 PM

I've been wanting to start a thread discussing this as well... the phrase "Ego eimi" is simply the most basic form of any sentence in the first person singular. "Ego eimi" is not a name... it is a statement that "I" "am."

For example: "I am sitting" and "I am typing."

Jesus said "Before Abraham existed, ego eimi" ... some translate this to "I am." ... but this isn't grammatically the same.

It would be closer translated to "Since before Abraham existed, I HAVE been." It's a statement that he pre-existed his human condition... but NOT necessarily "as his own Father."

Further, the direct translation of what people claim this is refering to is not "I am" either. Instead, it's "I shall become." God didn't say "I am who I am" but "I shall become who I shall become." Which could also be worded "I will prove to be who I will prove to be."

God wasn't suggesting that it was his NAME... he was stating that he would prove who he is.

... when trinitarians use this verse and say "See... Jesus said 'I am.' that means he's God." ... it really disappoints me.

Godfixated · #**319** 24th November 2009, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by gort

Pardone for butting in, but I've dealt with others as you in the same question you pose concerning God and temptation.. It's actually your error. YOu see, Israel tempted God. You'll find it in the OT. I won't find it for you. You'll see that God was tempted.

The first problem in your post is that you present an "apparent contradiction" in the Word of God with no attempt to explain of rectify it. The Word does not nor ever will contradict Itself. Everything fits like a hand in a glove, thus if we actually take the time to study, as in 2 Timothy 2:15, we can come an accurate understanding of each of these passages.

The key to this is context. James 1:13 specifically says that God cannot be tempted with evil. "With evil" is the key. Jesus Christ was most assuredly tempted with evil as in Matthew 4:1, "Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." Being tempted of the devil is definitely tempted by evil. Thus a more accurate statement would be, "How could Jesus be God if God cannot be tempted with evil by Jesus Christ was tempted by evil. God cannot be tempted to sin because He is not a man as it says in Numbers 23:19. The devil was trying to tempt Jesus Christ to sin in disobeying God. Of course Jesus Christ was victorious.

Let's look at a couple of places where God was "tempted" in the Old Testament. The first verse I would like to show would be Exodus 17:1-2, "And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment of the LORD, and pitched in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to drink. Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?" Here we see Moses asking the children of Israel why they tempt the Lord. Well a quick glance would have someone say, Oh God was tempted here, but looking deeper into this passage God is not being tempted to sin. They were more like testing God here because they did not believe on Him and thus He had to show another sign of His power. In Exodus 17:7, it explains exactly how they were tempting God. "And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?" Thus God was not tempted by evil because He was not tempted to sin.

Another passage in the Old Testament where God was tempted would be Numbers 44:20-22, "And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word: But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD. Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;" Again they are not trying to cause God to sin, they are testing in the fact that God had said the land of Canaan is theirs, but they have decided they were no match for the Canaanites. They had seen the wonderful works of God so many times and still they test His power in not believing in what God could do.

scriptures · #**320** 25th November 2009, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan Warrior

Handle what? You proved NOTHING.

Is not the trinity made up of three persons, this is the foundation of whole false doctrine?

Oh sure you used scripture to back up what you believe is the trinity; but you did not prove the doctrine of the trinity because you did not show me one verse that said anything about God is made up of "three persons". Until you can prove using scripture God is three persons you have no trinity. So stop spinning and show me using God's Word that God is made up of three person; if you can't you're verses have proven "NOTHING".

Wow, This is one of the best post I ever read. Excellent!!!! Clear!!!!Truthful!!!!Logical!!!!!Biblical!!!!!