I think that you're still missing the point... because here you're simply making more opinionated statements. I am looking at the same exact scriptures, and scripture as a whole, and coming to a different conclusion.
You believe that election means salvation - and that is nothing more than an opinion held by you and some calvinists... just as my own thoughts and interpretation of these things is an opinion that I hold along with many other people... who do not hold to calvinistic thinking.
And why would you have this problem if scripture is authoritative?
And why would you have this problem if scripture is authoritative?
Because the word of God is living and powerful - it's not some one time read where everything becomes perfectly clear in an instant.
I can't imagine any Christian telling me that the word of God is not authoritative... that's why it's called the word of God, it originates with God and again, it is living and powerful.
If you would like to pretend that the EOC has it all figured out, then that's your prerogative... but the truth is that the EOC is no different than any other group of believers... they simply claim that they're the one true church, which tells me that they seriously blinded to the truth of what scripture teaches concerning the church of God.
Because the word of God is living and powerful - it's not some one time read where everything becomes perfectly clear in an instant.
But we have had 2000 years where the Truth was known about these verses relative to the discussion at hand.
I can't imagine any Christian telling me that the word of God is not authoritative... that's why it's called the word of God, it originates with God and again, it is living and powerful.
Then why are you debating it as if it has no authority. You have two opinions which neither of you can formulate an answer that is authoritative. Either scripture is authoritative and you don't need opinions, or it is simply your best effort, opinion of what it might mean. Thus any opinion is as sound as the next, which is your predicament with CmRoddy in this discourse.
If you would like to pretend that the EOC has it all figured out, then that's your prerogative... but the truth is that the EOC is no different than any other group of believers... they simply claim that they're the one true church, which tells me that they seriously blinded to the truth of what scripture teaches concerning the church of God.
the Truth has existed for 2000 years. It has been preserved by the Holy Spirit.
You have made a grand assertion above, but can you put any substantive evidence for that assertion. As it stands it is meaningless.
But we have had 2000 years where the Truth was known about these verses relative to the discussion at hand.
So your implication is that you or your church DOES understand everything in the scriptures without any possibility of being wrong ?
Then why are you debating it as if it has no authority.
I'm not debating as if the scriptures have no authority... there are some things in the scriptures which are very simple and easy to understand (ie, that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh)...although there are other aspects of the living and abiding word of God which can take a lifetime to realize and understand... although none of that implies that I have perfect understanding of everything contained in the scriptures.
You have two opinions which neither of you can formulate an answer that is authoritative. Either scripture is authoritative and you don't need opinions, or it is simply your best effort, opinion of what it might mean. Thus any opinion is as sound as the next, which is your predicament with CmRoddy in this discourse.
And you're going to tell us that you have no opinion, but rather a perfect understanding of everything pertaining to the scriptures..?
the Truth has existed for 2000 years. It has been preserved by the Holy Spirit.
Yes, and again, does that mean that you and your church know everything that there is to know within its pages...? Yes ? No ? You're not sure ?
You have made a grand assertion above, but can you put any substantive evidence for that assertion. As it stands it is meaningless.
And it's true isn't it... the EOC claims that they are the one true church... and again - that simply tells me that there is a gross mis-understanding as to what the church of God is with repect to the EOC.
So your implication is that you or your church DOES understand everything in the scriptures without any possibility of being wrong ?
Unless Christ and the Holy Spirit lied, then not. But otherwise, All Truth was given to the Apostles. It is the Chruch that is preserving that Truth, with Christ as Head and the active work of the Holy Spirit. That is what scripture says authoritatively.
If you're asking does every member of that Church understand everything perfectly, the answer is no. That is why there have been heresies thorughout history. Man has tried to impose his own interpretation upon the Gospel.
I'm not debating as if the scriptures have no authority... there are some things in the scriptures which are very simple and easy to understand (ie, that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh)...although there are other aspects of the living and abiding word of God which can take a lifetime to realize and understand... although none of that implies that I have perfect understanding of everything contained in the scriptures.
What it means and how it is applied are two vastly different things. What it means has been always known as it was given. But the living of that Truth, the application is an ongoing journey for every Christian. But that is based on knowing what the Gospel actually means.
Sola Scripturists are attempting to first develop a belief system, then applying that knowledge to understanding how it is applied. You can spend an entire lifetime on the first without ever getting to the latter which is the whole purpose of God giving us All Truth in the first place. So we might know Him, then live according to His will and what He has revealed to us.
And you're going to tell us that you have no opinion, but rather a perfect understanding of everything pertaining to the scriptures..?
I may have an opinion on some things. But I am not speaking of me. I am speaking about the Gospel. I am speaking about the fact that first century Christians already understood the texts you are debating. They have been explained in every century since that time, all the same meaning.
Yes, and again, does that mean that you and your church know everything that there is to know within its pages...? Yes ? No ? You're not sure ?
No for me, Yes for the Church. It was given ONCE and then preserved within the Body of Christ, His Church. Read your Bible. It can be authoritative if one depends on the Holy Spirit rather than on what man might develop or think it means. The Bible did not just suddenly drop out the sky and we are left to try to figure out what it all might mean.
The meaning, the knowledge of scripture was known by the early Church even before it was written.
And it's true isn't it... the EOC claims that they are the one true church... and again - that simply tells me that there is a gross mis-understanding as to what the church of God is with repect to the EOC.
Of course they do, because they are in fact that Church that Christ founded at Pentacost. Can you disprove that fact.
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Originally Posted by Rightglory
Ghost air,
Unless Christ and the Holy Spirit lied, then not. But otherwise, All Truth was given to the Apostles. It is the Chruch that is preserving that Truth, with Christ as Head and the active work of the Holy Spirit. That is what scripture says authoritatively.
But your position has been that Scripture is NOT authoritative. Yet here, you appeal to the authority of Scripture. You cannot have it both ways.
Originally Posted by RG
If you're asking does every member of that Church understand everything perfectly, the answer is no. That is why there have been heresies thorughout history. Man has tried to impose his own interpretation upon the Gospel.
Ergo, since the church is made up of individuals, then the Church cannot be the repository of authority, as you so often declare.
Originally Posted by RG
What it means and how it is applied are two vastly different things. What it means has been always known as it was given. But the living of that Truth, the application is an ongoing journey for every Christian. But that is based on knowing what the Gospel actually means.
So, since your position is that only your church knows what the Gospel "really" means, then only those in your church have any possibility of livin it out.
Originally Posted by RG
Sola Scripturists are attempting to first develop a belief system, then applying that knowledge to understanding how it is applied. You can spend an entire lifetime on the first without ever getting to the latter which is the whole purpose of God giving us All Truth in the first place. So we might know Him, then live according to His will and what He has revealed to us.
An assertion without one ounce of proof.
Originally Posted by RG
I may have an opinion on some things. But I am not speaking of me. I am speaking about the Gospel. I am speaking about the fact that first century Christians already understood the texts you are debating. They have been explained in every century since that time, all the same meaning.
You have an opinion on more than just "some things". All you have done is repeat a mantra over and over again, but have never offered any actual proof of the assertions, or given any explanation of that which you assert. What explanation? Give us the details. Assertions without substance are meaningless.
[quote=RG] No for me, Yes for the Church. It was given ONCE and then preserved within the Body of Christ, His Church.{/quote]
meaning, according to you the EO Church.
Originally Posted by RG
Read your Bible. It can be authoritative if one depends on the Holy Spirit rather than on what man might develop or think it means.
That's what we do, RG. that is what we have been doing all along. That's what I do.
Originally Posted by RG
The Bible did not just suddenly drop out the sky and we are left to try to figure out what it all might mean.
Quite true. But, you assert over and over again that only the EO church knows what the bible "really" means. Yet vast majority of what we believe is in accordance with the councils, and canons of the Early church. Before it was EO. or RCC.
Originally Posted by RG
The meaning, the knowledge of scripture was known by the early Church even before it was written.
Fine, but we do have the Scriptures, and we do understand how to read, and that words mean things.
Originally Posted by RG
Of course they do, because they are in fact that Church that Christ founded at Pentacost. Can you disprove that fact.
Christ did not found the Eastern Orthodox Church, as an entity identified as such. Men created that particular construct. He did not create the Roman Catholic Church as an entity identified as such, either. Nor did He appoint a Pope, or a succession of Popes. Most of the hierarchical structure of both churches is not found in Scripture. What we find in Scripture is Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers, Deacons and Elders. It was not a two-tiered structure of Clergy and Laity, where the Clergy lords it over the Laity. Even your church, which you esteem so highly, fails at that point. If your church is the repository of the gospel, and what it really means, they apparently have missed it big time, and have failed to properly understand that truth, which they are entrusted with.
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So WHO in your church knows everything without the possibility of error ?
Obviously you know that the church consists of people who are flesh and bone... so do you know any of these people personally, or is this simply something that you've been taught by these people..?
Of course they do, because they are in fact that Church that Christ founded at Pentacost. Can you disprove that fact.
I'd like you to tell all of us here WHO the people are in your church that know everything that there is to know without the possibility of error... CAN YOU DO THAT ? Can you tell us WHO these people are ?
But your position has been that Scripture is NOT authoritative. Yet here, you appeal to the authority of Scripture. You cannot have it both ways.
Because it is Christ speaking through the scriptures. It is not man speaking through the scriptures. A HUGE difference.
Ergo, since the church is made up of individuals, then the Church cannot be the repository of authority, as you so often declare.
But individuals are NOT the Church. All individuals are ONE Church, ONE faith. The Church is Christ, He cannot err, as Head and through the Holy Spirit.
Your theology is that if a person has a cut on his finger and it festers, the whole body is sick, not the finger. If it festers and becomes poisonous, we cut it off so that the entire Body is not infected.
So, since your position is that only your church knows what the Gospel "really" means, then only those in your church have any possibility of livin it out.
Hardly. Paul has already given the Truth that many will be saved who have never heard the Gospel as you have had it revealed. He is speaking of men such as Enoch, Moses, Abel, Abraham. All men have been given a measure of knowledge of God whereby they can believe. You have been given, in these latter days not just Christ coming in the flesh and dwelt among us, but has fully revealed Himself to us. That knowledge and Truth carries much more weight than the Aborigine several thousand years ago.
You have an opinion on more than just "some things". All you have done is repeat a mantra over and over again, but have never offered any actual proof of the assertions, or given any explanation of that which you assert. What explanation? Give us the details. Assertions without substance are meaningless.
Like the Incarnation explanation. Paraphrasing you, if one gets that wrong everything else is wrong. Then you promptly condemn yourself with your erroneous interpretation of the Incarnation. Here we are again. The basis of the Incarnation and you still don't understand what it means.
meaning, according to you the EO Church.
Yes, according to the Gospel given to the Apostles, the beginning of that Church. It has been preserved in and throuigh that Church ever since. That is what scripture asserts and history acknowledges as fact. You don't need to believe, many do not believe.
That's what we do, RG. that is what we have been doing all along. That's what I do.
But no place have you ever shown that the Holy Spirit constantly gives out new Truth to every individual. Jude says it was given ONCE. Jude 3. It has been preserved. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to lead men to that Truth, not to give it all over again and again. And at that, in different form than the previous man. If you go by sola scriptura, one would of necessity need to assume the Holy Spriit is quite confused.
Quite true. But, you assert over and over again that only the EO church knows what the bible "really" means. Yet vast majority of what we believe is in accordance with the councils, and canons of the Early church. Before it was EO. or RCC.
The early church was both EO and RCC before 1054. There was no difference. RCC split off and went on their own under the leadership of a lone man. They forsook Christ as Head of His Church.
The Bible is not the whole of the Gospel. You cannot separate a part from the whole and think that you can wave a majic wand and come up with what it has always meant. that is quite manifest since the Reformation.
Since you ascribe to a Reformed theology there is absolutely nothing in the Early Church that you believe. You believe in a different purpose of man, a different man than the Bible descirptes, as the Fathers taught. You have a drastically different explanation for the fall and what it did, thus a vastly different means of salvation, eclipsing the Incarnation altogether. The Incarnation explanation you gave makes Christ completely meaningless for man. Your view of the individual salvation of man is not found in the early Church. Predestination of person to believe is not found in the early Church. It is found in ONLY one man's personal view. It was not representative of the Church then or ever. You even have a different view of atonement which is why it eclipses the Incarnation.
So, what do you believe that the early Church believed?
Fine, but we do have the Scriptures, and we do understand how to read, and that words mean things.
k Then why do you have the meaning of the Church incorrect. The meaning of the Incarnation incorrect. Regenerative baptism, synergistic, covenantal relationship as foundational to the salvation of ones soul?
Christ did not found the Eastern Orthodox Church, as an entity identified as such.
Can you give any evidence anywhere in history that it is not that Church?
Men created that particular construct.
Yes, the generational continution of the Apostles and the first Christians of the early Church. There is an unbroken continously line of connection both linear and via the Gospel Truth. There has never been a break in that 2000 year continous existance. Of course, if you can actually prove that the Church ceased to exist, then all is moot. Christ could not live up to His promise to both preserve HIS Body in this world and His Gospel. That you are a Calvinists, I might as well be Muslim because it will make no difference.
He did not create the Roman Catholic Church as an entity identified as such, either.
that is very true. Many individual men tried to change the structure of the Church as collegial under Christ to a organization headed by a human being instead. They finally succeeded when Pope Leo IX broke away from the Church to establishe the RCC and what it has become today.
Nor did He appoint a Pope, or a succession of Popes.
You are absolutely correct. There never were any before the RCC was established.
Most of the hierarchical structure of both churches is not found in Scripture.
the hierarchial structure of Orthodox Church is found is scripture. The Bishop of each Church is the highest ecclessiatical authority in a Church. The rest of the hierarchial structure is within each communion, the physical, organizational structure, but that is not what constitutes the Church. The body of Christ has no organization, has no other Head than Christ. Each congregation is ONE Body, under the doctrine of the Trinity. Many members make ONE Body, and many Bodies or congregations make ONE Body. Same essence but ONE. It is why Christ prayed for that unity which has been kept for 2000 years. Do you really believe that Christ could not fulfil His own prayers to the Father?
It was not a two-tiered structure of Clergy and Laity, where the Clergy lords it over the Laity.
It was always two tiered. You have not read Timothy very well. Each Church was to appoint elders and practice was to have one as overseer, or bishop. It has been that way from the beginning and is still that way today in the Orthodox Church.
Even your church, which you esteem so highly, fails at that point.
could you point out what person or office is higher than a bishop?
So WHO in your church knows everything without the possibility of error ?
The entire Body from the first Apostle to the present youngest member. Individuals do not have authority over scripture, nor the Gospel. It was given wholly, ONCE, and is being preserved. It was the Church that was guided into all Truth through the Apostles. It is the Holy Spirit working in that Body by virture of being indwelt in each and every member. It is the Body that is infallible. Christ is Head of that Body and the Holy Spirit preserves both the Body and the Gospel. It is written in scripture.
Obviously you know that the church consists of people who are flesh and bone... so do you know any of these people personally, or is this simply something that you've been taught by these people..?
It is what is taught within the Church. It can be checked in every age as beign the same, from the beginning. Man, individual man, has not been able to change that Gospel.
If you think it has, please cite the individual man that changed the Gospel?
I'd like you to tell all of us here WHO the people are in your church that know everything that there is to know without the possibility of error... CAN YOU DO THAT ? Can you tell us WHO these people are ?
All those that are in heaven right now. They preserved that same Gospel in their generations. It is being preserved as a Body today, not as individuals who try to impose personal opinion against that Truth.
I can easily ascertain a false teaching today after 2000 years of unchanging Gospel. If some teaching cannot be found as always been believed from the beginning it is a false teaching. It is how all false teaching has always been acertained. it is known as the "rule of faith" what has always been believed.
The entire Body from the first Apostle to the present youngest member.
So now you're contradicting yourself. You have already said that YOU personally do not know everything there is to know in the scriptures, and yet here you're saying that 'every member' does know everything there is to know in the scriptures...
So which is it...?
Are you now claiming that YOU know everything there is to know in the scriptures, without the possibility of error ? IF NOT, then how can your statement above be true ?
It is the Body that is infallible. Christ is Head of that Body and the Holy Spirit preserves both the Body and the Gospel. It is written in scripture.
What do you mean by infallible ? Do you mean that the body of Christ is beyond reproof or error ? Where do the scriptures teach that the body of Christ is infallible... assuming that your definition is that they are beyond reproof.
It is what is taught within the Church. It can be checked in every age as beign the same, from the beginning. Man, individual man, has not been able to change that Gospel.
If you think it has, please cite the individual man that changed the Gospel?
Who has claimed that the gospel has changed ?
I can easily ascertain a false teaching today after 2000 years of unchanging Gospel.
Yet you cannot list ONE PERSON who knows all there is to know about the scriptures without the possibility of being wrong... why don't you just tell us who these people are...? Would you do that...?
Would it be His All Holiness... does he know it all ?
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