The soul and Consciousness

ragarth · #1 16th August 2009, 07:36 PM

Does the soul contribute to consciousness and cognizance?

Is the soul the source of human cognizance? Does the 'I think, therefore I am' postulate exist only because of the of the human soul?

Gracchus · #2 16th August 2009, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by ragarth

Does the soul contribute to consciousness and cognizance?

Is the soul the source of human cognizance? Does the 'I think, therefore I am' postulate exist only because of the of the human soul?

That is, of course, impossible to answer until you tell us about the properties of the soul. I have never observed such a thing, and as far as I know, none of its properties have been measured.

Can you even demonstrate that such a thing exists?

Your question is as meaningful as. "Does the beauty of flowers arise from the machinations of leprechauns?" or "Does the sun rise because of faeries?"

tansy · #3 16th August 2009, 07:58 PM

Maybe it partly depends on what is meant by 'soul'.

Soul in Christianity (at least from my understanding) is looked upon in slightly different ways according to one's views. It's often taken to include the mind, so I would say that the possible answer to your question is 'yes'. However, in Christianity, I think that we might say that our spirit informs (or at least, can, inform, our mind..though we are free to act against or for that). And, of course, beyond that we would say that the Holy Spirit (and perhaps other spirits) inform our mind.

Of course, so also, do all our other external stimuli...

I'm not sure if this quite answers your question - but one wey or another (whether or not one believes in God, which was kind of the angle I took), I would say that it is essentially the soul..or at least the mind, which causes us to know we exist...at least whilst we are here on earth. (It could be argued, further to my initial point, that even after death we still know we exist, although we are not in our body...but a lot of these things hinge on how we view the soul I think)

AV1611VET · #4 16th August 2009, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by ragarth

Does the soul contribute to consciousness and cognizance?

Is the soul the source of human cognizance? Does the 'I think, therefore I am' postulate exist only because of the of the human soul?

Here is the 411 on the tripartite nature of man:

body = soma = gives us world-consciousness via the empirical senses
soul = psyche = gives us self-consciousness via the mind, the will, and the emotions
spirit = pneuma = gives us God-consciousness via the Scriptures

Vermithrax · #5 17th August 2009, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by AV1611VET

Here is the 411 on the tripartite nature of man:

body = soma = gives us world-consciousness via the empirical senses

soul = psyche = gives us self-consciousness via the mind, the will, and the emotions

spirit = pneuma = gives us God-consciousness via the Scriptures

So what happens to the soul and spirit when the body suffers from brain damage?

ragarth · #6 17th August 2009, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by AV1611VET

Here is the 411 on the tripartite nature of man:

body = soma = gives us world-consciousness via the empirical senses

soul = psyche = gives us self-consciousness via the mind, the will, and the emotions

spirit = pneuma = gives us God-consciousness via the Scriptures

Mind expounding on this a little bit? To me, there is consciousness, talking of 'world' 'self' and 'god' consciousness is meaningless without having the role of the term 'consciousness' in these statements more thoroughly explained. Keep in mind you're explaining things to an atheist, we communicate and comprehend differently than theists.

ragarth · #7 17th August 2009, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by tansy

Maybe it partly depends on what is meant by 'soul'.

Soul in Christianity (at least from my understanding) is looked upon in slightly different ways according to one's views. It's often taken to include the mind, so I would say that the possible answer to your question is 'yes'. However, in Christianity, I think that we might say that our spirit informs (or at least, can, inform, our mind..though we are free to act against or for that). And, of course, beyond that we would say that the Holy Spirit (and perhaps other spirits) inform our mind.

Of course, so also, do all our other external stimuli...

I'm not sure if this quite answers your question - but one wey or another (whether or not one believes in God, which was kind of the angle I took), I would say that it is essentially the soul..or at least the mind, which causes us to know we exist...at least whilst we are here on earth. (It could be argued, further to my initial point, that even after death we still know we exist, although we are not in our body...but a lot of these things hinge on how we view the soul I think)

To me, we are the mind, the act of cognizance and consciousness is integral to the experience of sentient life. Both traits are part of the philosophical structure referenced when we talk of the mind, and both traits are critical to the phrase 'I think, therefore I am'. Given this, it can be said that for mental existence to be maintained, the mind must be part of this, and any afterlife that does not include the mind is not, in actuality an afterlife- If the mind is not part of the soul, then the life after death is akin to keeping your arm on life support. Your soul lives on, just as your arm might, but you do not. This is my opinion at least.

To the greater meat of your statement, what is the general, over-arching belief as you see it as to what properties of mind belong to the soul?

tansy · #8 17th August 2009, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by ragarth

To me, we are the mind, the act of cognizance and consciousness is integral to the experience of sentient life. Both traits are part of the philosophical structure referenced when we talk of the mind, and both traits are critical to the phrase 'I think, therefore I am'. Given this, it can be said that for mental existence to be maintained, the mind must be part of this, and any afterlife that does not include the mind is not, in actuality an afterlife- If the mind is not part of the soul, then the life after death is akin to keeping your arm on life support. Your soul lives on, just as your arm might, but you do not. This is my opinion at least.

Yes, I see what you're saying, I think. Hm...we differentiate between the brain and the mind..we think, using our brain, yet also our mind..our mind seems somehow, more intangible...I wonder if our spirit also has a mind, as it were...perhaps, that would be what carries on after death, taking who we are and our memories etc with it. Question is, what is the essence of our being...lots of difficult questions..not sure of the answers..

Do you think that our mind is separate from (though still maybe an integral part of) our brain? Or do you think what is called 'mind', is just a particular function of some part of the brain?

How about animals..do you think they are conscious of their own existence..that they know that 'they are'?

To the greater meat of your statement, what is the general, over-arching belief as you see it as to what properties of mind belong to the soul?

I'll have to think about this a bit more..it's stuff I've vaguely thought about in the past, but don't know any definite answers - I'm not quite sure how to answer you on this - you've just made my mind go into over-drive LOL...rather like when one gazes out at the unimaginable vastness of the universe, and it makes one feel dizzy trying to picture it

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LifeToTheFullest! · #9 17th August 2009, 08:01 PM

We are molecules of emotion.

ragarth · #10 18th August 2009, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by tansy

Yes, I see what you're saying, I think. Hm...we differentiate between the brain and the mind..we think, using our brain, yet also our mind..our mind seems somehow, more intangible...I wonder if our spirit also has a mind, as it were...perhaps, that would be what carries on after death, taking who we are and our memories etc with it. Question is, what is the essence of our being...lots of difficult questions..not sure of the answers..

Do you think that our mind is separate from (though still maybe an integral part of) our brain? Or do you think what is called 'mind', is just a particular function of some part of the brain?

How about animals..do you think they are conscious of their own existence..that they know that 'they are'?

To the greater meat of your statement, what is the general, over-arching belief as you see it as to what properties of mind belong to the soul?

I'll have to think about this a bit more..it's stuff I've vaguely thought about in the past, but don't know any definite answers - I'm not quite sure how to answer you on this - you've just made my mind go into over-drive LOL...rather like when one gazes out at the unimaginable vastness of the universe, and it makes one feel dizzy trying to picture it

In my opinion, cognizance, consciousness, etc are all resultant properties from the brain. Much like we can talk about momentum as a separate entity from a moving car, we can talk about the mind as a separate entity from the brain, however the momentum is a result of the physical properties of the car and the mind is a result from the physical properties of the brain- they cannot be divided from them because they are not physical entites, they are 'virtual'. This dependence of the mind upon the physical structure of the brain can be proven, in cases of brain damage, such changes as behavior, personality, or various forms of lost cognitive function are produced.

Alien Hand Syndrome is a disease in which bodyparts are capable of taking complex action without the conscious control of the individual, and was the rare product of certain forms of brain surgery to treat epilepsy. In one case a woman who was attempting to quit smoking had her right hand continuously try to put a cigarrette in her mouth. My understanding is, however, that the movements of the uncontrolled limb are of a pretrained manner- things the individual had done frequently with that hand, and not new and spontaneous behavior. This leads me to conclude that many of those actions we consider core to conscious thought are not in actuality integral to consciousness. Further relevent experimentation involves the removal of the cerebrum in animals. Lower chordates that have their cerebrum removed show little change in action, but as the complexity of the decerebreated animal increases, so does the change in behavior. At the higher levels, such as cats, dogs, and birds, such actions as flying, walking, eating, etc are preserved, sexual interest is preserved, etc, but the animals tend to view their surroundings as a collection of objects and frequently lack significant complex behavior- Their movements are readily predicted, the animals become nothing more than automata carrying out scripted actions to stimuli. This tells us that the 'mind' that which produces spontanaity, personality, is dependent upon or within the cerebrum.

A text-book of human physiology - Google Books

One can still make the claim, however, that the brain is an antenna, and certain parts of it pick up stimulus from the 'soul' if we assume animals have souls (though if we say animals don't have souls, then proponents of the soul have problems since this shows that significant levels of cognition, reason, and behavior are dependent upon a particular brain region). To answer this query, we can take a look at humans who have had portions of their brain damaged. If the mind is separate from the brain, then damage to the brain should impair actions and gross behavior in an all or none way but should not effect such traits as personality (food preference), morality, etc. It has been observed, however, that brain damage does indeed impair or change these things. Damage to the Ventromedial Prefrontal Cortex impairs rational decision making- people who suffer this trauma have a distinct tendency to take larger risks, they also have a tendency to be less 'moral' than us, being more likely to be willing to kill their own child to save their life. Other results of damage to this region include reduced feelings of shame, compassion, and guilt.

Moral Decision-Making and the Ventromedial Prefrontal Cortex The Phineas Gage Fan Club
A neural substrate for moral decisions Neurophilosophy

As per my personal opinion, as stated, I see myself as my mind, not necesserily my body (it's a convenient vessel for the mind), however my mind is dependent upon my body in a critical way. To establish this we look at what physical properties of the brain result in the mind: electrochemical reaction, and physical structure. Without the electrochemical properties, the brain would be an inanimate lump of mass at best performing the processes of cellular metabolism only- ie no mind, and without the physical structure there's no basis for the electrochemical properties. Even if the electrochemical properties could be divided from the brain, without synapses, soma, and axons to give structure to the electrochemical reactions, all you'd have is some hypothetical electrical and chemical glob- no structure, no mind; you may as well be the static cling holding some socks together.