The topic of sin in 1 John.

Mankin · #1 15th August 2009, 12:54 AM

1 John 1:8-10 declares that we are liars if we claim that we do not sin but 1 John 3:5-10 declares that if we are Christians we must not continue to sin. These two ideas seem to be in conflict with each other, for we are liars if we say we do not sin but we must not continue to sin. (I'm not saying this is my opinion I'm just providing an initial impression one can develop.)

How do you interpret these two texts? I would like to hear some of your thoughts regarding this matter.

DArceri · #2 22nd August 2009, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Mankin

1 John 1:8-10 declares that we are liars if we claim that we do not sin but 1 John 3:5-10 declares that if we are Christians we must not continue to sin. These two ideas seem to be in conflict with each other, for we are liars if we say we do not sin but we must not continue to sin. (I'm not saying this is my opinion I'm just providing an initial impression one can develop.)

How do you interpret these two texts? I would like to hear some of your thoughts regarding this matter.

Briefly:
1 John 1:8-10 is talking about the self righteous. (note:Christ's Spirit will reveal how much of a sinner we truly are).
1 John 3:5-10 is dealing with the work of the Holy Spirit within those who are 'in-Christ'. (Sanctification process). One cannot continue to go to the bars and have premartital sex if the Spirit of Christ is within you. If you do, then Christ never made Himself known (revealed Himself) to you.

sungaunga · #3 28th August 2009, 12:21 AM

we all sin, that's absolutely clear when John says we are liars if we say otherwise. When John says no one who abides in him "sins" it means, that we don't have a lifestyle of "Lawlessness." A Lifestyle of sin. If you recall, John in verse 3:4 says sin is lawlessness. Its literally meaning that you're living a life as if there is no law [spiritually]. As a Christian, we do not live that kind of life. We all fail and fail miserably at times. But it's not some kind of a habitual pattern of sinful life we're engaged in.

John says in v10 if you practice righteousness, you're of God, if you don't you're not. Plain and simple. In fact, John says by that it will be obvious who is a believer and who is not. Put it all together, we know we are all sinners, and we sin. But are you striving to live a holier and sanctified life? 2 COR 7. Always remember it's not the perfection in ones life, but the direction.

As Paul says, "not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on..."

MrPolo · #4 28th August 2009, 10:48 AM

Regarding the latter, when we sin we are for that moment departing from our Christianity, and we cannot rightly call ourselves as being "Christian" when we are sinning, no? Christians are those who should conquer sin...the passage is more of an exhortation. All that being said, it is conceivable that a person so immersed and focused on Christ can conquer sin even in this world. That may be extremely rare in history, but God's grace can move mountains! I'm still a lonnnnng way off....

sungaunga · #5 28th August 2009, 10:57 PM

well Mr. Polo, I respectfully disagree. I do believe that when you sin, it grieves the Holy Spirit yes, but nevertheless, you are still a child of God. I'm saying you're still a Christian. That's why we're chastened. If what you're saying is taken literally, For a Christian who has been truly saved, who dies while sinning, is sent to eternal hell. For how can a person go to Heaven without being a Chrisitan?

I also do not think anyone in this world, past, now or future, will ever "conquer" sin to a degree where they don't sin anymore. Not while we're living in this fallen flesh. Now I totally do agree that some people are actually "holier" then others. But not to perfection.

" if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us"

Until we are given a glorified body along with our glorified soul which is currently in us. In other words, it's going to be a stuggle, until that day we see Christ. Paul uses the analogy of a runner in a race.

"not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on...I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; "

and I believe we will truly achieve Christlikeness, in the ultimate sense, as much a glorified human being will be like deity, is when we see our Lord Jesus Christ.

"we know that when he appears, we will be like Him"

LST 1154 · #6 10th September 2009, 11:49 PM

We were all born in sin; Psalm 51:5, "For I was born a sinner-- yes, from the moment my mother conceived me." So we were born in sin and nothing can be done about it. We will be sinners forever, we cannot stop being sinners so we might as well enjoy it right? Too bad God is powerless to do anything about our sinful nature isn't it. Boo hoo we simply must sin because sinners can only do one thing and that is sin. Sinners cannot do righteousness. We are trapped until we die in these sinful bodies that are bent toward sin.

Now wouldn't it be wonderful if somehow God could send Someone to be a perfect sacrifice and in His death defeat His enemy the devil? Perhaps "before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes." (Eph 1:4) Holy? Without fault? NO, sorry we are just sinners. We could be born again, born from above, not from below, then maybe He could fill us with His Holy Spirit who could empower us to live above our glands and above our sinful desires. He could entirely sanctify our body, soul and spirit and we could be completely victorious over the devil EVERY time (1 Cor 10:13). Nope it's just a pipe dream, remember we are just powerless sinners driven by our organs and by our sinful desires. Forget that the scriptures say that "greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world." Boo hoo, woe is us.

The above is exactly what the enemy wants us to believe. So what is the truth? "...we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." Romans 8:37. We can live above sin, 1 John 3:6, "Whoever abides in Him does not sin." We cannot sin! 1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

LST 1154

MrPolo · #7 11th September 2009, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by sungaunga

well Mr. Polo, I respectfully disagree. I do believe that when you sin, it grieves the Holy Spirit yes, but nevertheless, you are still a child of God. I'm saying you're still a Christian.

I wasn't really asserting anything different if I was not clear.

holyrokker · #8 19th September 2009, 10:12 PM

1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Notice that the verb isn't in the present tense. It's in the present perfect, which refers to something prior to the present.

mannysee · #9 19th September 2009, 10:19 PM

Mankin,

There are two groups addressed in this letter.
1. Gnostics and 2. Christians.
Search out some good articles on this and you will resolve your questions.

holyrokker · #10 19th September 2009, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by LST 1154

We were all born in sin; Psalm 51:5, "For I was born a sinner-- yes, from the moment my mother conceived me." So we were born in sin and nothing can be done about it. We will be sinners forever, we cannot stop being sinners so we might as well enjoy it right? Too bad God is powerless to do anything about our sinful nature isn't it. Boo hoo we simply must sin because sinners can only do one thing and that is sin. Sinners cannot do righteousness. We are trapped until we die in these sinful bodies that are bent toward sin.

LST 1154

Psalm 51:5 doesn't teach that humanity is born sinful. It doesn't even teach that David was born sinful.

It is a song of repentance. David is expressing, with strong language, the anguish of his guilt.

Notice the personal pronouns used:

blot out my transgressions
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
cleanse me from my sin
For I know my transgressions
my sin is ever before me
Against you, you only, have I sinned

It is obvious that David is accepting full responsibility for his actions. He is not attempting to pass his sin off on a pre-existing condidtion.

Also notice the wording of verse 5

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is not a doctrinal statement of inherited sin. It doesn't even imply that David himself inherited a sin nature.

David is utilizing "hyperbole" - a standard poetic practice of exaggerating a statement. The purpose is to express intense emotions, or to make a strong empression upon the reader, and should not be taken literally.
A common American hybole is "I'm so hungry, I could eat a horse".

David again uses this technique in verse 7:

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Surely David isn't creating a doctrine of cleansing from sin in this statement.

An interesting article on Psalm 51:5 can be found here: http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/li...liamMurray.pdf A Perspective on Psalm 51:5 by William P. Murray, Jr.