Concerning the Ramchal's teachings pertaining to astrology, and reincarnation I neither endorse, nor oppose the ideas. However, the ideas can in fact be inferred from the Tanakh, as well as the New Testament. Some of the Ramchal's teachings are on the sod level of interpretation, and must therefore be understood with the rules that apply to that level of teaching. I'm certain that this is where the confusion stems from with any teaching that is Kabbalistic in style. The general idea that everything in the physical world has a spiritual equivalent can be confirmed by Scripture. Some examples in the New Testament would be the heavenly Jurusalem, and the heavenly Temple, just to name a few. Also, the idea that everthing a person says, does, and thinks affects the spiritual world can also be verified by Scripture. I believe that this idea pictures the heavenly court. The beit din if you will. Is it not evident that the righteous are accused by the satan in the heavenly beit din, then the judgements of that court are carried out in the physical world? The book of Iyov should be evidence enough wouldn't you say?
Concerning the Ramchal's teachings pertaining to astrology, and reincarnation I neither endorse, nor oppose the ideas. However, the ideas can in fact be inferred from the Tanakh, as well as the New Testament. Some of the Ramchal's teachings are on the sod level of interpretation, and must therefore be understood with the rules that apply to that level of teaching. I'm certain that this is where the confusion stems from with any teaching that is Kabbalistic in style. The general idea that everything in the physical world has a spiritual equivalent can be confirmed by Scripture. Some examples in the New Testament would be the heavenly Jurusalem, and the heavenly Temple, just to name a few. Also, the idea that everthing a person says, does, and thinks affects the spiritual world can also be verified by Scripture. I believe that this idea pictures the heavenly court. The beit din if you will. Is it not evident that the righteous are accused by the satan in the heavenly beit din, then the judgements of that court are carried out in the physical world? The book of Iyov should be evidence enough wouldn't you say?
I have always considered much of what passes as the "sod" level of interpretation a licence to mould the Word of God in our own image, but that's another story.
What you say about heavenly equivelants and so forth is not something I would dispute- there is ample evidence that certain elements of the faith are icons of heavenly realities (although I don't think there is an equivelant for everything), but I think if we speculate beyond what we are told as to what they are and what forms they take, we are stepping beyond the boundaries we have been given.
I guess my reaction to reincarnation and astrology (to begin with) is based largely on the fact that they are not specifically taught in scripture as things we are to believe. Astrology, in particular, leads people to place their trust in things other than God's hands and leads them to seek a form of divination that is not given for us to follow. Even if it could possibly work, it is not the way we are told to discover God's will for us. Reincarnation is strictly ruled out in the NT, and that settles any disputes about that topic from a Christian point of view.
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"We are already one. But we imagine that we are not. And what we have to recover is our original unity." Thomas Merton
(Matthew 11:2-3)
And John having heard in the prison the works of the Christ, having sent two of his disciples, said to him, `Art thou He who is coming, or for another do we look?'
The only interpretation that I've heard on this passage is that Yochanon was lacking in faith, and wanted reassurance from Yeshua that he was indeed the Moshiach. That interpretation doesn't make any sense. We read that Yochanon was filled with the Ruach HaKodesh even from his mothers womb (Luke 1:15) and was a great prophet of Israel (Matt 11:9 Lk 7:26) who announced to the children of Israel that Yeshua was indeed the long awaited Moshiach (Jn 1:29) saw the Ruach HaKodesh descending upon Yeshua (Jn 1:33 Mk 1:10 Matt 1:16) heard HaShem speak from heaven concerning Yeshua (Matt 1:17 Mk 1:11 Lk 3:22 ) and even testified that Yeshua was the son of G-d (Jn 1:34).
Yochanon had no doubt at all that Yeshua was the Moshiach. I think this verse has to do with the prevailing idea of the time, that there was two Moshiach's that were to come. This is really the only interpretation that makes sense, all things considered. Yochanon sent disciples to Yeshua asking him if there was another Moshiach he should seek out, in addition to Yeshua.
(Matthew 11:2-3)
And John having heard in the prison the works of the Christ, having sent two of his disciples, said to him, `Art thou He who is coming, or for another do we look?'
The only interpretation that I've heard on this passage is that Yochanon was lacking in faith, and wanted reassurance from Yeshua that he was indeed the Moshiach. That interpretation doesn't make any sense. We read that Yochanon was filled with the Ruach HaKodesh even from his mothers womb (Luke 1:15) and was a great prophet of Israel (Matt 11:9 Lk 7:26) who announced to the children of Israel that Yeshua was indeed the long awaited Moshiach (Jn 1:29) saw the Ruach HaKodesh descending upon Yeshua (Jn 1:33 Mk 1:10 Matt 1:16) heard HaShem speak from heaven concerning Yeshua (Matt 1:17 Mk 1:11 Lk 3:22 ) and even testified that Yeshua was the son of G-d (Jn 1:34).
Yochanon had no doubt at all that Yeshua was the Moshiach. I think this verse has to do with the prevailing idea of the time, that there was two Moshiach's that were to come. This is really the only interpretation that makes sense, all things considered. Yochanon sent disciples to Yeshua asking him if there was another Moshiach he should seek out, in addition to Yeshua.
Isn't that more logical?
John sends a carefully worded message to Yeshua hinting that he, John, was still in jail and that he had expected Yeshua to get him out - he was, after all, the Messiah who John had announced with great gusto and promise. The actual message asks Yeshua if he is the one or is there another. It would have been a bigger problem for John to send asking, quite openly, if Yeshua was the Messiah - Yeshua would then have to positively acknowledge that he was, and so make it very public and risk, in so doing, an early death. The alternative was that he could deny it, if only to maintain his 'cover' but that would have ended his ministry immediately! Yeshua answers not by affirming it in as many words but by merely pointing to the evidence of his Messiahship. John would have realised, on receiving the answer from his own disciples, that Yeshua was indeed affirming that Messiahship.
Why did John ask? He was, I expect, afraid of being in prison and his pending death, as were his own disciples. He had done a wonderful PR job on his cousin, and the people who believed what John had said about Yeshua would expect him to be released from prison by some direct Messianic action by Yeshua, as many expected when Yeshua was on the cross - it didn't happen in either case - G_d's will had to be carried out. That it didn't happen may well have been a concern of John's - because, he may have thought, Yeshua's ministry might suffer because he, Yeshua, couldn't / wouldn't even get his own cousin out jail and so save him from a certain death!
Loss of faith - no way! Looking for a way out, just as did Yeshua did in Gethsemane - almost certain. If Yeshua could seek his Father for a way out, I'm sure there is no shame in John seeking a way out from Yeshua, the Messiah and Saviour of the world.
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John sends a carefully worded message to Yeshua hinting that he, John, was still in jail and that he had expected Yeshua to get him out - he was, after all, the Messiah who John had announced with great gusto and promise. The actual message asks Yeshua if he is the one or is there another. It would have been a bigger problem for John to send asking, quite openly, if Yeshua was the Messiah - Yeshua would then have to positively acknowledge that he was, and so make it very public and risk, in so doing, an early death. The alternative was that he could deny it, if only to maintain his 'cover' but that would have ended his ministry immediately! Yeshua answers not by affirming it in as many words but by merely pointing to the evidence of his Messiahship. John would have realised, on receiving the answer from his own disciples, that Yeshua was indeed affirming that Messiahship.
Why did John ask? He was, I expect, afraid of being in prison and his pending death, as were his own disciples. He had done a wonderful PR job on his cousin, and the people who believed what John had said about Yeshua would expect him to be released from prison by some direct Messianic action by Yeshua, as many expected when Yeshua was on the cross - it didn't happen in either case - G_d's will had to be carried out. That it didn't happen may well have been a concern of John's - because, he may have thought, Yeshua's ministry might suffer because he, Yeshua, couldn't / wouldn't even get his own cousin out jail and so save him from a certain death!
Loss of faith - no way! Looking for a way out, just as did Yeshua did in Gethsemane - almost certain. If Yeshua could seek his Father for a way out, I'm sure there is no shame in John seeking a way out from Yeshua, the Messiah and Saviour of the world.
You had some good things to say, Heber. However, I think this whole scenerio with Yochanon sending his disciples to Yeshua runs a bit deeper than what we see on the surface. Personally, I believe Yochanon was an Essene, or at least part of a faction that split off from the Qumran community. I also believe that where the gospels are silent about Yeshua's young adult life, he was in fact in the wilderness with Yochanon. I'm going to present some evidence to support this shortly, but I need to look up some more sources from the Dead Sea Scrolls, and this will likely take a few days. The DSS describe the Qumran communities strong belief in the two Moshiach concept. I believe the nature of Yeshua's reply to Yochanon's disciples is a direct result of what we can learn of the Quamran communities theology concerning Moshiach. The one thing Yochanon didn't know was the timing between the appearance of Moshiach Ben Yosef, and Moshiach Ben David. Yochanon, being a prophet, did as all prophets before him did, searching out the timing between the two Moshiach's:
(1 Peter 1:10-11)
This salvation was the subject of the search and investigation of the prophets who spoke of the grace you were to receive, searching out the time and circumstances for which the Spirit of Christ, bearing witness in them, was revealing the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow them.
Anyway, Yochanon had already proclaimed that Yeshua was "the lamb of G-d that takes away the sin of the world", so he had no doubt whatsoever that Yeshua would fulfill the role of the suffering servant, Moshich Ben Yosef. So his question was about the role of Moshich Ben David. Also, Yeshua's reply to Yochanon's disciples is directly related to the Shemita, Yovel Year (Jubilee Release). This Jubilee release is the foundational teaching of the "Gospel" (which is completely lacking in Christendom's definition of the Gospel). I'll try to fit all these idea's together in my next post.
Why did John ask? He was, I expect, afraid of being in prison and his pending death, as were his own disciples.
I don't think that was Yochanon's motivation for questioning Yeshua at all:
(Mark 6:20)
Herod stood in awe of Yochanan and protected him, for he knew that he was a tzaddik, a holy man. Whenever he heard him, he became deeply disturbed; yet he liked to listen to him.
Yochanon was obviously not in fear for his life, and neither were his disciples who had not even been imprisioned by Herod. Yochanon's beheading came suddenly, and was completely unexpected.
I didn't mean to imply that his disciples were in prison - they clearly were not! I meant that his disciples were afraid that he would die. John would have known only too well that the fact that he was imprisoned was not good - no matter how much Herod may have enjoyed hearing him or cared for him! Prison is prison - in those days it only ever had one outcome, all that changed was how that outcome was achieved! If Herod liked him that much he would not have held him in prison. Yeshua's response would have confirmed to John that his time in prison was G_d's will (or he would have been removed some how, as was Paul et al).
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Last edited by Heber; 11th September 2009 at 06:25 AM.
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