Rapture?

All righty, this is a question that been bothering me for awhile now so I thought id ask. Ive read through revelation and some things I kind of understand and alot of it I dont, im reading the MacArthur Study Bible and it has explanations which is very helpful.

So what with the Rapture? I hear there will be one before the tribulation begins, then I hear that there will be one mid-way through, then I hear there wont be one, so its very confusing to me and I thought id try and get an opinion of someone who is more knowledgeable in this and has a better understanding of Revelations. Im always asking God to guide me to the truth, and I know he wont let me down. Even if we have to go through the tribulation than that will happen and if need be will be, if there is a Rapture though thats even better! Whatever Glorifies our lord then let it be, his will be done! So whats the deal on this hehe? Thanks everyone

There are always people who say the Rapture will happen any day now, which is one of many reasons why Paul told us to "study to show ourselves approved." From what I've read in God's word, things in life will get really bad and the church may very well still be here waiting on the Rapture. The Lord said that nations shall rise against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms. There will be a great tribulation that the ruptured won't have to experience, thank God. Still, the onset may be experienced by a very large Christian population.

What does that mean? Consider mass chaos breaking out and progressively escalating worldwide. It may even take several years as outer factions become more aggressive. We are now tied to a worldwide economy and I don't see that changing, and we now know that when the economy is affected our lives are turned upside down. Complete collapse would bring outer nations to our doorsteps, or us to theirs all for the sake of self-preservation. Militaries, stretched from having to fight outside factions and inner-country warlords, will fall, and no government can survive without its military.

For sure, the rapture will be at hand.

There will be lawlessness and desperate survival in cities and communities where warlords rule, with nothing to stop them but each other trying to acquire the other's regions. The people will be caught in the middle, and many may well be Christians waiting on the Rapture. We must never lose hope, because what will follow will be far worse and the Lord has already told us that the church will not be here to endure it.

Here's a tip about the Book of Revelations. It moves fast, very fast, so you have to slow it down, because there's a lot of meat in those pages. When you know the pace is rapid it helps with the comprehension.

some people do not believe that there will be a rapture at all...

all orthodox conservative Christians believe that Jesus is going to return...

but Dispensationalists (like MacArthur) believe that there will be a 7 year Tribulational period prior to the second final phase of Jesus' return, and that at the first phase of Jesus' return (the rapture) He will come part way to the earth, the saints will be taken up with Him into the clouds, and then depending on your view, this will happen either during the beginning of the 7 yr period (which is the most common view today among Evangelical Christians, and is the view of MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll, David Jeremiah, Dallas Theological Seminary etc) which is called Pretribulation Dispensationalism, or people believe that half way through the 7 years which is called Mid-Tribulational Dispensationalism the saints will be raptured, or some believe it will take place at the end of the 7 year period, these are called Post Tribulationalists... this 7 yr period would then precede a literal thousand yr reign of Christ on earth...

but no one believed in the rapture theory prior to the late 1800's... which ought to give anyone pause when considering this doctrine... in any case prior to the rise of Dispensationalism Christians believed in either Historic Premillennialism (Christ could return anytime to usher in a literal thousand yr reign on earth), or Amillennialism (no literal thousand yr period, Christ could return anytime) or Postmillennialism (where the earth will become mostly Christianized, the gospel having been preached to the entire earth, and then Christ will return at the end of a long period of time, but not a literal thousand yr period)....

the hardest thing to get over initially, in my experience, is the idea that one's eschatology, and in particular, the question as to whether or not one believes in the rapture theory, is a proper test for orthodoxy.... Dispensational Premillennialism is so popular and pervasive today that most times to deny it is to make most Christians look at you cross eyed, as if you have lost your mind and become a Liberal or something!! lol.... the fact is, many people who hold to a very high view of Scripture (infallibility, inerrancy), who believe that Jesus will in fact return one day, simply do not see the doctrine of the rapture taught in Scripture and that is why they do not believe it...

for more on these historic views see

Monergism :: Amillennialism

Monergism :: Historic Premillennialism

Monergism :: Postmillennialism


blessings,
ken

__________________
"The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." Samuel Davies 1723-1761
"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." Erasumus 1466-1536

I am an ultimate cynic when it comes to Revelation. I have studied many of the interpretations and generally go, "I do not know" on as much as I can, which is the way to true knowledge -- as Jesus showed us.

Do not be misled into thinking there is one possibility or solution. Even look at Revelation which speaks of "seven seals" or seems to strongly imply there is great mystery in the prophecy of Scripture which is locked to everyone.

And Jesus said, 'of that day and hour no one knows, not the angels in Heaven, not even the Son, but only our Father in Heaven'.

Now, if He was only talking about a single event, why say "day" and "hour"?

I also have seen spiritual meanings in Scripture which I have noticed many agree with, but many others seem oblivious to. Such things are not widely known nor acceptable.

God often speaks in deep metaphor, and surely does through all of Scripture, not only in prophecies, but also in using events as prophecy themselves. These things are very hidden and it clear there are many deep meanings within Scripture not available to interpreters.

We should also be wary of falling into the trap the Pharisees did. They felt they knew everything about the Messiah. And they were all wrong. They did know a lot and had many prophecies compiled about His coming. But they were totally taken by surprise.

(Some get defensive when I say that, but surely it is something we should take warning from with humility.)

There are, however, some very basic 'need to know facts' about the end, and the Apostles wrote of some of these as did Jesus speak of them. Those matters were not as obscured and put deep in metaphor as Revelation is.


I see another poster already pointed out the various more popular interpretations. I would take all with a grain of salt, but do not close yourself out thinking there is only "one way" or some experts on such matters -- though many will profess to be so. There is nothing wrong with seeking out the truth, but we can get in trouble when we assume we have answers we do not actually have.


My own viewpoint is Revelation is highly metaphoric but also literal. This is from studying the common symbols used such as "sea" and "fish" and so on. There does seem to be some very common events. But it is by no means impossible for God to work these things out so people are caught unawares. How else would they be so deceived as the Book plainly says they will be?


And I do believe there is something like a "pre-tribulational" rapture, but I do not view it in the way I see presented by people. After all, in Revelation eleven and twelve you see in the exclamations Heaven brought to earth.

Matters of the grave, the resurrection, and such are very deeply hidden from man and God uses even visions as metaphors: real but metaphoric for something else.


To be explicit: definitely examine popular interpretations, but examine many. And look to old and new sources and where they come from and who believes what.


Never close a door, but keep it open until you are absolutely sure.

However, though I say I got matters from "studying", I should remind you I say that so as to not offend of a very critical verse in 1 John 2:

End times are a very interesting subject in the bible to me, the more I look at it the more I feel we are close to the end, of course, being close may mean there is another 50 years to wait, a hundred, or maybe tomorrow..its been 2 thousand years or so since Jesus went up to heaven. I was watching a video on tangle and this guy said that people everywhere agree we are in a strange and unusual time period, and that people who dont even have a religious point of view seem to think things are strange, almost like everyone can "sense" something strange..sometimes I find myself looking at the sky in wonder, thinking I might see him up there hehe. I myself cant find which opinion on the rapture to agree with, I just know it will happen how ever our Lord wants it too.

God lives in our hearts through the Holy Spirit.

He 'fills all of creation'.


The concept of a two stage rapture is relatively new in terms of Christians expressing it, as another poster pointed out. I do think some kind of "rapture" happens from Scripture, but am not quick to try and define it.

As for these days... yes, and how old is the earth? Maybe everyone is wrong and it is really seven thousand years old, instead of six. "On the Seventh Day God rested".

That would be a matter God would want to hide, lest people could predict such things.

Look at Hitler, an obvious anti-christ, he tried to kill off the Jews and start his own perverted millennium, almost as if he were operating for the devil to try and escape some looming future.

One thing about these times today is like with any culture: we are raised in a culture and it is very difficult to be objective about any kind of observation made in it, it is, by nature, a subjective matter.

For instance, people strive to have an 'appearance of godliness, but deny the power', as Paul warned about.

That itself can be difficult to discern when one has been raised in cultures where such an appearance of godliness is taken for granted. Where is the power? People trust in "rationality" and science, denouncing faith at every corner.

Such an evil does not, on the surface, appear to be awesome, but it really can be when taken into the context of what is expected of us as believers and what we know about the nature of God and the universe.

we have been living in the end times ever since Jesus came... people of all times have thought 'we are near the end"... on the one hand we don't want to get numb to the rapture fever going on around us so that we get fed up with all the predictions etc and then fail to watch for Jesus' return... we don't want to be like the people living in Noah's days saying that the flood will never come... the flood came, and just like the flood that did in fact come, Jesus will return... we don't and won't know the hour or the day, but what we do know is that Jesus commanded us to watch and pray... if you are doing that, then you can be a "pan-millienialist", because we know that God is in control, and in the end, everything will pan out...

blessings,
ken

__________________
"The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." Samuel Davies 1723-1761
"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." Erasumus 1466-1536

The rapture and end times are areas on which there will always be almost as many opinions as there are Christians, because Revelation is a prophetic vision which is open to interpretation.
Whilst it is interesting to study, ultimately, it doesn't matter... God has a plan and He will work it out in His own time. We need to concentrate on living for Him now, and trust Him with the future.

__________________

I do not even attempt to call the shots as far as the Rapture - I watch and pray as the Bible tells us to do - but I have to admit that things are lining up to be the end times, but as stated before - this has been said throughout time - every generation has to have hope and this is their hope that Jesus will return in their time.

Myself, I feel the timeclock is Israel - watch what is happening there - as the Bible says that Israel will fight alone and only Jesus can save them - Israel is almost there now - we are slowly pulling away from helping them, this administration is not in favor of helping them much and have thrown our support behind the enemy of Israel with our funds, etc.

The truth that points to what is happening is the Bible - the Church is not found after Chapter 4 in Rev. - it speaks of the Church being in Heaven and that tells me we do not go through the tribulation.

No matter what anyone says - Jesus will split the Eastern skys and we will be out of here in His time.

__________________
Be Blessed

The rapture will be the cataclysmic event that will usher in the one world government and antichrist.

In 1Thess 5:1-8 it speaks to Christians and tells them that they will know that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. This is different from the Second Coming in Rev 19:11 where Jesus comes on a white horse and makes war.
There will be a rapture as Paul has stated.
Back in 1Thess 5:1-8
The world will say peace and safety but then sudden destruction shall come upon them. But we who are Christians will not be in darkness about that day and it won't overtake us as a thief because we are Children of the light and of the day. We do not sleep as the unbelievers do but we watch and we are sober. Then in 1Thess 5:9 it says God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation through Christ.
Then here's the key for the rapture, in 1Thess 5:10: Who (Jesus) died for us (Christians), that, whether we wake (alive) or sleep (death), we should live together (in Heaven temporarily until the New Jerusalem comes down to earth) with Him (Jesus).
We (Christians) are to comfort and edify each other with those words.
This matches 1Thess 4:13-18.
You can see the matches from 1Thess 4 and 1Thess 5
1Thess 4:14 Jesus died/1Thess 5:10 Who died
1Thess 4:14 so them also which sleep/1Thess 5:10 we sleep
1Thess 4:17 we which are alive/1Thess 5:10 wether we wake
1Thess 4:17 and so shall we ever be with the Lord/1Thess 5:10 we should live together.
1Thess 5:9 states that God has not appointed us to wrath. What wrath is that? It's the one from 1Thess 5:3 sudden destruction. We obtain salvation (this is the blessed hope from Titus 2:13). Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;.
Which matches Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
In Col 3:5 we can see again the wrath of God is coming on the children of disobedience which matches 1Thess 5:7

We also have Jesus speaking of the days of Noah. What makes that special to us today?
The Talmud says that back then in the days of Noah, homosexuals were marrying.
We have the same thing going on today. See this link:
How same-sex marriage points to end of the world

Thanks,
TT

__________________
The Bible states that those who fornicate (living that lifestyle) will not inherit the Kingdom of God be it between homosexuals or men and woman who are not married. (Gal 5:19-21).
Again, I urge anyone who supports homosexual marriage to repent of their sin.