Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
I don't think that's the point of his quotation, especially considering the highlight portions.
He's arguing against special creation as well as evolution.
Aye. While Torrey was obviously clueless about the evidence for evolution, it's evident from the quote above that he also rejected god-of-the-gaps arguments against evolution. Good on him. Many neocreationists could learn something from him.
__________________ We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universes, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act.
Aye. While Torrey was obviously clueless about the evidence for evolution, it's evident from the quote above that he also rejected god-of-the-gaps arguments against evolution. Good on him. Many neocreationists could learn something from him.
Of course you have to read his other commentaries. Not just Mallon but other people. But even when you do, you will deny every word he says because he makes a true good argument in which you cannot defend. I mean it is very noticeable that you cannot since you cannot even give a rational explanation for your beliefs in a man made belief system, lol.
__________________ " In The Beginning God..."
--Genesis 1:1 (God)
Of course you have to read his other commentaries. Not just Mallon but other people. But even when you do, you will deny every word he says because he makes a true good argument in which you cannot defend. I mean it is very noticeable that you cannot since you cannot even give a rational explanation for your beliefs in a man made belief system, lol.
lol, indeed. It's funny that you would denounce rationalism in one sentence, and then ask for a rational explanation in another. I can't tell whether you're for being rational or against it.
__________________ We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universes, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act.
lol, indeed. It's funny that you would denounce rationalism in one sentence, and then ask for a rational explanation in another. I can't tell whether you're for being rational or against it.
Evolution is irrational if you are logically superior to see it.
__________________ " In The Beginning God..."
--Genesis 1:1 (God)
Evolution is irrational if you are logically superior to see it.
What makes it irrational? Let's have a conversation rather than belittling each other's intelligence. It's not a very Christ-like thing to do.
__________________ We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universes, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act.
The point here "in Adam" is, If the Adam in Genesis did not exist like you claim. We cannot die through Adam because he never existed therefore he had to be a literal "created" being made from 'mud' but has an objective morality code. Just because we were made of mud does not mean we cannot have morality because we have a "creator". Just like a K9 dog knows his master. The dog obeys his commands. We too should obey god's commands and commandments but accepting theistic evolution is not the way in doing so my friend. If this was all just a "picture" how could we die in Adam? We die because of a symbolic picture that sinned.
We die because we sinned, that is certainly what the bible keeps teaching, Ezek 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. Rom 5:12 death spread to all men because all sinned. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death. James 1:15 sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
Why is it a problem that a literal Adam did not exist? Adam is a picture of the human race and the human race does exist, Adam's sin and fall is a picture of all of us sinning and falling short of the glory of God. We are certainly real, so is our sin, why is it a problem that the picture describing it is figurative? Jesus used figurative pictures all the time to describe real spiritual truth. You know there is nothing about being made from mud that gives the human race its morality, it is not what God made us from but how he made us that wrote God's laws in our heart, and it is his word that gives us the commands we know and break. That is why you have plenty of TEs who see no conflict between evolution and a literal historical Adam and Eve who knew God and his command and fell. Being made in God image and knowing his command has nothing to do with being literally moulded from mud and as I said before that is a very common biblical metaphor and we certainly don't take it literally anywhere else.
Anyway, if Paul was talking about a literal historical Adam, how can we be 'in Adam' if Adam is long dead, turned to dust and returned to the ground he came from?
Yeah the devil has deceived the whole world but there had to be an actual origin. If Adam and Eve was just a mere symbolic picture there would be no justification of the start of sin.
Presumably someone had to be the first, unless it was a group defection like the golden calf, but you are assuming there is something about the first sin and its effects that sets it apart from every other sin and that is was a literal Adam's sin that is the important one. I just don't see that in the bible. We sin the way Adam and Eve did in the story and we bear the same consequences.
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. How is James' description of us any different from what Eve experienced? She was tempted by the serpent, but it was her own desires that got the better of her. Gen 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.
Anyone with a logical sense would know that I am not talking about Adam Ant, etc.. That is just stupid. It says that Adam was created a living being, therefore Adam has to be literal. If Adam is literal then Evolution cannot have happened before Adam since, "death" entered through him. You said, "Cain" What about Abel or Seth? Why Cain? Note Cain - is not from "heaven" ...
I mentioned Cain because he was the second man, if we are talking literally anyway. Literally speaking Jesus wasn't the second man, the same as he wasn't the last person named Adam. If Paul was speaking literally he was completely wrong, but he wasn't speaking literally. Again I have dealt with the question of what sort of death was the result of Adam's sin. Have you noticed how Romans 5:12 talks about how death spread to all men... No mention of animals, nor does the bible say anywhere that animal death is the result of the fall. In fact Rom 5:12 says this death spread to all man because all sinned, that can't apply to animals because they don't sin.
How did God make the human race? He never has said he created a single-living cell organism to populate the earth but he told Adam and Eve that and also Noah. Not the organism.
There are load of things mentioned in the bible that still exist. In fact the bible never even mentions single celled organisms at all. We only discovered them in the 18th century. Not mentioned in the bible but they still exist and do a very good job of filling the earth. Heliocentrism isn't mentioned in the bible it even contradicted the way people interpreted the bible throughout church history up until that time.The earth still goes round the sun.
BUT NOTICE IT SAYS, "FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION GOD MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."
Note at the beginning of creation, God created Adam and Eve as the first man and woman, Male and Female. No it was not an allegorical interpretation. It was not a picture. God said HE MADE them Male and Female to substitute that marriage is between a male and female not a male and male or vice versa. Do you know what the word, "Made" means?
Is that the beginning of creation of the world or just the creation of the human race? Jesus was talking about God creating humans here, not the world. Look at how Matthew reads the statement Matt 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female. It is the creation of mankind Jesus is talking about, not the creation of the world.
What does it mean to be a "creator" ?? You have to LITERALLY create something. For there to be a painting there has to be a painter. For there to be a building there has to be a builder.
Hebrews 3:4
4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
This is used in the literal sense of someone who "literally" builds a house which is a "picture" to show that God, "Literally" created all things in the account of Genesis. Still, if there was not a literal Genesis account of creation. Man kind would not be here. We would not know anything if the biblical account of creation is not literally true.
Don't confuse the reality of God creating everything with how literal the description is. Even if the Genesis account isn't literal it is still a poetic description of God who really is the creator.
You can twist the words all you want.
If the biblical account of Genesis was not literal, there would be no morality,
I think you might be limiting God there...
the promises of God in Revelation and just throughout the Bible would be invalid all because of Man's opinionated beliefs of evolution replacing the literal account of Genesis to a 'symbolic picture.'
You realise Revelation is a symbolic picture too? Does that make its promises invalid? You should not be surprised God speaks to us in metaphors and parables, Jesus did it all the time. You are in good company though, the disciples struggled with the way Jesus spoke in parables too. Learning to understand to understand biblical metaphor parable and allegory is part of being Jesus' disciple.
You know why they view this as a symbolic picture? Because then mankind can tell people their beliefs of what actually happened when in fact it is nothing but a fallacious hoax with a set of 'weak' argumentative products based upon the assumptions of a set of presuppositions that allow man to decide what was true and not God. They declare what account of Genesis says for God whenever they don't let God speak to them.
You know Christians took Genesis figuratively long before Darwin came along. The rest is conspiracy theory and ad homs. Scientists accept evolution because it is simply the best explanation for the evidence and has stood up to every test thrown at it. That is how science works.
And prove that Genesis is used, "Figuratively." And no duh that would be the fallacy of reification. You still commit the fallacy of bifurcation to state that it MUST be used figuratively whenever you cannot prove this claim of assumption because you say this only so evolution can become applicable to the Bible in which turn; cannot.
There is wide range of different ways Genesis can be interpreted, it is actually creationist who insist, without any proof, that it can only be interpreted literally. The question we need to ask is, why stick to an interpretation that has been shown to completely wrong, when there are other good interpretations, including quite literal ones, that don't contradict the scientific evidence. Not many people still cling to a literal interpretation of the geocentric passages when there are other ways to read the passages that don't contradict what we know from science. It was Augustine who pointed out that you can have different interpretation of a passage that are perfectly reasonable ways to understand the passage, until there is a new development in science that shows one is wrong. Then you know that that interpretation was never what scripture meant anyway.
I see you have committed a prejudicial conjecture. If you would just simply study the effect of evolution on people and the foundation of Evolution. You would see that this is not a false dichotomy. Just because 'you' cannot see it because you do not want to accept it does not make it false. You simply just have a lack of knowledge of what they teach. I mean I have taken biology class in High school.
You probably need to be a bit more specific as to what you think my prejudicial conjecture is.
Science is made up of "fallible" man opinions.
So is our interpretation of scripture and our understanding of God's ways, Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Even though we have the Spirit of God, we still only see through a glass, darkly 1Cor 13:12. On the other hand, the natural world is a lot easier for flesh and blood man to understand, and it is possible to test our ideas, something we can't always do with God.
Which in fact brings me to my next question. If Adam and Eve were just symbolic how come we are fallible? Obvious the 'picture' of Adam and Eve did not do this since they were not literal in your case. How come we are fallible? How come we are not perfect?
Who says Adam and Eve were perfect? I know that is the creationist idea, but it is not what the bible says, Genesis only says creation was 'very good'. Perfection only comes when we share in the resurrection with Christ. Read 1Cor 15 again, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God 1Cor 15:50, yet that is what Adam and Eve were supposed to be made of Gen 2:23 This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.
And since we are fallible, you choose to take refuge in a man made belief system of opinions of what happened with the origins of life this rejecting the infallible God of creation?
Do you think your interpretation of Genesis is infallible?
You are acting as if 'evolution' is the way GOD made this world and the origins of life whenever this cannot be true. I just find it very sad people put their faith in a man-made belief system (in which since they are evolutionists they do not think logically to their sense that it is actually a belief system) which is totally made fallible through the word of God in Romans, 2 Peter, Revelation, Isaiah, and Ezekiel and possibly others also to show there has to be a "literal" creation not just a symbolic picture of what happened just so a man made belief system can be entered into the realm of Christianity just because of the feigned words of Evolutionists who teach this as truth when in fact they refuse to assert that there interpretations are based only upon their beliefs of what happened through their presuppositions which is totally illogically fallacious.
Again you are mixing up Creation being real with the account being literal. The word literal can only really apply to words, creation is an event, an act of God. It is word and narratives that are literal or figurative. The bible tells us that God is the creator, that all things are created through and for Christ. What is the problem if we find out how life developed over billions of years on earth? All that is telling us is how God created it, and that some of our interpretations of Genesis were fallible and mistaken. We got things wrong before. God still created the sun moon earth and planets even if we misunderstood how the bible describes them. We are fallible and we should learn from our mistakes and move on.
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No better way to represent the compassion of Christ by defining yourself as superior.
We all did at 17.
__________________ We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universes, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act.
Yeah the devil has deceived the whole world but there had to be an actual origin. If Adam and Eve was just a mere symbolic picture there would be no justification of the start of sin.
What's the justification for the start of sin if Adam and Eve are literal, historical figures?
Science is made up of "fallible" man opinions. Which in fact brings me to my next question. If Adam and Eve were just symbolic how come we are fallible? Obvious the 'picture' of Adam and Eve did not do this since they were not literal in your case. How come we are fallible? How come we are not perfect?
We're fallible because God made us that way, by means of the process of evolution. In your view, why were Adam and Eve fallible?
And since we are fallible, you choose to take refuge in a man made belief system of opinions of what happened with the origins of life this rejecting the infallible God of creation?
I choose to take refuge in what best explains the evidence I see. I do not choose thereby to reject the infallible God of creation. What I do reject is your fallible opinion.
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