Concerning Limited Atonement

Blood-washed Baptist · #1 10th August 2009, 07:03 PM

I posted this question in this sub-forum of Semper Reformanda instead of in my usual stomping ground (the Baptist forum) because I wanted to get more answers from those of the Calvinist persuasion.

Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

My question is this, does this verse go against the teaching of Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption. The reason that I ask is because I have been studying the five points of Calvinism, and as a "free will, general atonement" guy, I believe that this verse teaches that the righteousness of Christ is available to all ("unto all"), but is only given to those who believe ("upon all them that believe"). This seems pretty obvious from the text. I looked at John Gill's commentary on this verse, but he skips over this not addressing the "unto all" and "upon all" arrangement of the text. This is more or less a question rather than a debate starter because I have no desire to be drawn into a debate, though I might play "devil's advocate" (although my position is hardly the devil's).

It seems to me as if there are two groups in this verse:
1) Everyone ("unto all" or towards all or for all). Christ's righteousness is directed towrds this group.
2) This group is much smaller than the first, but it is a part of the first. This group would be the elect, those who by belief in Christ have been imputed His righteousness ("upon all them that believe," to all that believe).

Thanks in advance.

Missionary Joshua · #2 10th August 2009, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Romans 3:21-31 (ESV)

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

You asked, “does this verse [which is underlined] go against the teaching of Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption.”

I do not think that within the context of the passages associated with the underlined verse that you can say one way or the other. The focus here is that all humanity is sinful, and that you must have faith which God gives you to be justified and forgiven for your sins.

You could from the verses associated with the given one deduce that since Christ is propitiating [taking the wrath for] your sin that either Christ died for the Church in a limited sense meaning that only a select few are members of the Church or that Christ paid for the sins of everybody universally and that humanity is the Church and that the sin of disbelief is a sin propitiated for then faith is not necessary.

Since faith is necessary, Christ died for the Church not all of humanity.

kenrapoza · #3 10th August 2009, 10:23 PM

Hello there,

First of all, welcome to Semper Reformanda!! Thank you for the fellowship! Though I'm a little short on time at the moment to really delve into this, I just want to point out a couple things at the outset of your conversation. The idea of "limited atonement" (which is a very misleading term by the way, which is why many people don't use it anymore) is that Christ's atonement was "sufficient for all, but efficient for some." This is to say that the value of Christ's atonement, so to speak, is unlimited and infinite because of who Christ is. However, it is only applied in an effective manner to those who place their faith in Christ. The Reformed doctrine of "limited atonement" shouldn't be thought of in a quantitative sense.

Another thing I want to mention is that there are certainly universal aspects to Christ's atonement, and that is true from a Reformed perspective. The gospel is to be preached to all, regardless of nation, tribe, tongue, economic status, Jew or Gentile. And in the end the entire cosmos (all of Creation) will be renewed (Rom. 8:22; Is. 65:17-18; Rev. 21:1-2) because of the work of Christ. Also, Christ is the only savior available to Creation. In this sense, he is the savior of the world (i.e., the only one).

My last quick thought: every orthodox Christian believes in limited atonement. The difference is if you limit it in extent or efficacy. In other words, if Christ's blood was intended to save every single person, and every single person is not saved, then the blood of Christ doesn't actually save anyone! All the doctrine of "limited atonement" says is that Christ accomplished exactly what he set out to do and he didn't fail, nor did he lose any one of whom the Father gave to him (John 6:37- 40). Please note v. 40: "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." To whom does the Father will to give eternal life? It is those who "look on the Son and believe". God accomplishes His will, He is not weak and thwarted by our wills. This is why it is more proper to speak of it as "Definite Atonement" or "Particular Redemption".

thefivesolas · #4 11th August 2009, 12:28 AM

Greetings brother Jeremy, give me a few days to think about this and ill post back.

Saved4ever · #5 12th August 2009, 12:34 PM

Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

Paul starts here in v.22 by saying that even the righeousness of God is given to us by faith given to us by Jesus' sacrifice. Which is going to be given "unto all" and "upon all" that believe. For there is no difference weither it is unto us or upon us. Paul does state that only those that have faith will be given the righeouness of God. We must look now at faith and the way that it is given and who it is given to.

Ephesians 2:8-10
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

When we are saved we are saved by grace through Faith. But we get clarification of where that faith is coming from, for it is not of ourselves but a gift from God. So that no man can boast of the great things that he has done to earn it. For if we could we would be taking the glory away from God. for we have been created to do the works in which God has laid before us. Not the works that we would do by ourselves but the works that are created in us through Christ Jesus. We also see here that God has chosen us to walk with Him and do the things in which He has called us to do.

So do i feel that the verse given supports the view of Limited attonment? Yes I do. I would also urge you to think about the fact that in the Old Testiment God chose Israel to be His chosen people, just like He has elected us to be His chosen people

Missionary Joshua · #6 12th August 2009, 04:22 PM

Might I solicit some constructive criticism of my previous post which I have quoted below from my Reformed brothers (and sisters

)

Originally Posted by Missionary Joshua

You asked, “does this verse [which is underlined] go against the teaching of Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption.”

I do not think that within the context of the passages associated with the underlined verse that you can say one way or the other. The focus here is that all humanity is sinful, and that you must have faith which God gives you to be justified and forgiven for your sins.

You could from the verses associated with the given one deduce that since Christ is propitiating [taking the wrath for] your sin that either Christ died for the Church in a limited sense meaning that only a select few are members of the Church or that Christ paid for the sins of everybody universally and that humanity is the Church and that the sin of disbelief is a sin propitiated for then faith is not necessary.

Since faith is necessary, Christ died for the Church not all of humanity.

kenrapoza · #7 12th August 2009, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Missionary Joshua

Might I solicit some constructive criticism of my previous post which I have quoted below from my Reformed brothers (and sisters )

You asked, “does this verse [which is underlined] go against the teaching of Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption.”

I do not think that within the context of the passages associated with the underlined verse that you can say one way or the other. The focus here is that all humanity is sinful, and that you must have faith which God gives you to be justified and forgiven for your sins.

You could from the verses associated with the given one deduce that since Christ is propitiating [taking the wrath for] your sin that either Christ died for the Church in a limited sense meaning that only a select few are members of the Church or that Christ paid for the sins of everybody universally and that humanity is the Church and that the sin of disbelief is a sin propitiated for then faith is not necessary.

Since faith is necessary, Christ died for the Church not all of humanity.

I think you're basically correct here. The main point that Paul has been emphasizing all throughout Rom. 3 is God's righteousness and our sinfulness. Up through Rom. 3:20 Paul demolishes any pretense of sinful human beings being justified through works of the law:

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes the knowledge of sin." (Rom. 3:20, ESV)

In the next paragraph (Rom. 3:21 - 26) Paul explains how the person and work of Christ shows us God's justice and righteousness while at the same time making a propitiation for our sins so that we may be saved. This is a very profound point that Paul is making: after the whole argument of the condemning power of the law has been building toward a climax of despair, it turns out that when that climax erupts in the ultimate condemnation and curse of the law, it is actually the very same climax wherein the law is satisfied, our sins are paid, and God's righteousness, which is the righteousness of Christ, is credited to us sinners, and we are then set free from the curse of the law. In this way God's justice and His grace are brought together in a miraculous way.

As Paul says in Gal 3:13-14 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us - for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree' - so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith." (Paul quotes Deut. 21:23)

So when Paul gets to verse 22, his emphasis is this: We can only become heirs of this righteousness through faith. Why faith? Because faith is not a work of the law, it is not meritorious. Faith is the passive conduit of trust wherein we receive the benefits of Christ. It would be more precise to say that God saves us through the instrument of faith (which is a gift from God) on the basis of Christ's righteousness.

Given that, Paul is not directly addressing the idea of Particular Redemption in this verse. Paul's concern is the righteousness of God which is demonstrated through the cross and comes to usthrough faith.

heymikey80 · #8 31st October 2009, 12:52 PM

I think it might be clearer wrt to "Limited Atonement" to note, the Atonement is not applied to everyone to whom atonement is offered.

I realize this receives a "duh" response very often. However, anti-Calvinists constantly merge the two when it comes to Calvinism.

The critical point in Calvinism is that the Atonement is not applied to everyone.

For most Calvinists (including Calvin) though, the Atonement is indeed sincerely offered generally to all of us. The question comes whether you'd accept such a favor. Calvinists think no, a spiritual offer is consistently considered an unrealistic fantasy by those who are non-spiritual. They don't think on realistic spiritual terms -- so everyone ultimately rejects the offer on realistic spiritual terms unless they're born spiritually.