Is God Both Good & Evil ?

JusSumguy · #41 19th August 2009, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by elman

Evil is reality. In this world it exists because we create it.

IMHO

We're gonna hafta agree to disagree on this one. Because, from my perspective, God created everything. We didn't/don't make evil, we stir it.

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elman · #42 19th August 2009, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by JusSumguy

IMHO

We're gonna hafta agree to disagree on this one. Because, from my perspective, God created everything. We didn't/don't make evil, we stir it.

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I agree we must agree to disagree. I don't believe in an evil God. I believe in a Creator that is good all the time and can be depended upon to be good.

elman · #43 19th August 2009, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by JusSumguy

With all respect, I don't think even one thing gets by God.

Which gives him a point, in all things, at which a decision must be made. Even the turning of a blind eye is participation. Because he CAN stop evil, and he allows it to continue, I believe that it's part of the formula.

I don't think that God is evil, or uses it like a swath. I'm just like you, I believe God is the embodiment of all things good. But I do see that there is participation. I mean..... I'm not blind over here.

This type of hyperbole turns new people away from us when they ask honest, and obvious questions. When we don't make sense, and then we say something lame like "Only God knows," or "God works in mysterious ways" and all we get back is a rolled eye, and a goodbye.

We have to do better than that. Not a lot of time left.

Also, we know that he has no problem being in the presence of evil. satan went right up there and had an argument with him about Job. God didn't say to him....No I wont meet you, I'll have to send Michael to handle that because I can't be in the presence of evil.

How about the most common question? Let's start with that.

You tell me. Counsel me here. I'm a young person thinking of God's path but something is troubling me. So I told myself that you would be the best person I know to answer it for me...... If God is so powerful, and good. Why does he allow so much pain and sorrow to take place?

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I have no answer to that question. I don't know. I do think I know why God lets some pain and suffering take place. I think God wants you and I to respond to His love for us with love. We cannot do that if we are not able to refuse to love. When we are given the ability to love and do the opposite, yes God gave us that ability, but no God is not a particpant in our decision to not love and when we do that we are not doing what God wants us to do. Your question it seems to me is why does God not use HIs power to remove all evil from this world. The answer is He does not do that because He loves us and if He removed all evil from this world we would be gone.

bling · #44 19th August 2009, 04:05 PM

Jesus addressed the question of why tragedies happen and the answer was not because of sin, satan, evil in the world or Adam and Eve, but for the good that can happen. John 9: 1-7.
That is always the reason, unfortunately good people do not always cease the opportunity provided and allow good to come out of the tragedy. Does that mean god has to allow even more tragedies and even closer home to the good people in this world or quit providing opportunities for good people to finally accept and/or grow Godly type Love?
As far as the “purpose” for satan, there are things satan can do that God cannot do. God can manipulate satan to do stuff that will help those that are willing to fulfill their objective. Ex.: God did not want Christ to go to the cross and it pained Him greatly, but He Loved us enough to allow satan and satan’s followers to torture and kill Jesus so we would not have to suffer for our sins.
This it the quick answer,

elman · #45 19th August 2009, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by bling

Jesus addressed the question of why tragedies happen and the answer was not because of sin, satan, evil in the world or Adam and Eve, but for the good that can happen. John 9: 1-7.
That is always the reason, unfortunately good people do not always cease the opportunity provided and allow good to come out of the tragedy. Does that mean god has to allow even more tragedies and even closer home to the good people in this world or quit providing opportunities for good people to finally accept and/or grow Godly type Love?
As far as the “purpose” for satan, there are things satan can do that God cannot do. God can manipulate satan to do stuff that will help those that are willing to fulfill their objective. Ex.: God did not want Christ to go to the cross and it pained Him greatly, but He Loved us enough to allow satan and satan’s followers to torture and kill Jesus so we would not have to suffer for our sins.
This it the quick answer,

Your answer is a good as I have found, but it is not satisfying to me. I see a lot of pain and suffering that does not appear to have any connection to good coming out of it. Also I don't believe in Satan. I think Satan is symbolic of the evil that is possible in us and I think evil men tortured and killed Jesus which being allowed by God indicated how much God loved us and through the resurrection and teachings of Jesus we are assured of the grace and mercy of God to allow us the hope of eternal life, even in the face of our failure to live completly and perfectly loving as God is.

Breckmin · #46 19th August 2009, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by JusSumguy

God created everything.

So God creates every random thought you think? God creates everything
you can imagine??? "How does He create it?" Does He first create the
being of volition? And then the being of volition "creates" it? And God
also creates your every decision to sin? Or do you choose? Perhaps
God's infinite decree is so great (inclusive of infinite determiners) that
it is able to account for random creations of mankind and absolute
choices (the infinite determiners mathematically remove the paradox
and contradiction, btw).

So did God create Himself? If God is Love, then did God create original
LOVE or is it apart of Him that has always existed? Did God create
infinite time and infinite 3 dimensional existence??? OR did these two
dimensions become "effectual" when a finite existence was created to
move and travel through time??? Did "we" enter into God's infinite
domain when He created us??? Do time and (not quantum space)
infinite 3 dimensional existence somehow NEED to be created???

Did God create Jesus? OR has Jesus always existed because He is
One with the Father - the same God as God the Father? Did God
create His Power? Did God create all of His Holy Attributes? Did
God create Omniscience and Omnipresence?

Clearly, in the English we need to clarify. "God created everything
that was created."

Originally Posted by JusSumguy

We didn't/don't make evil, we stir it.

This is a pretty serious charge to make against a Holy God...that
God is somehow the Author of evil rather than the fact that He
created "choice" and evil/sin is the potential bi-product of choice.

God DOES bring forth judgement and unrest and unfavorable
circumstances as it says in Isaiah 45:7....but God does NOT create
our sin....
how could it be logical for God to judge us for our sin if He created
it?

And WITW does "we stir it" mean?

Breckmin · #47 19th August 2009, 09:00 PM

RE: Logical eternal separation and consequences for actions

Originally Posted by elman

Your belief. Nothing more. Death is not separation and does not mean separation. It is the opposite of being alive.

The koine Greek word "thanatos" does NOT refer to annihilation. The scriptures
clearly teach in Hebrews 9: 27 that it has been appointed "once to die" and then
comes judgement. You don't get annihilated, you get JUDGED..

Re: Hell is two fold - you can't forget the Holy Nature of God

Originally Posted by elman

I have not missed it. I reject it as reality. We can assume a loving God or an evil God or a God that is both evil and loving. I assume the loving God. If you assume something else, it is simply that your assumption.

I assume a loving God who is ALSO a just God. If there is NO payment for
sin, then the person who committed the sin MUST logically pay for it.
IF all sin remains in the ETERNAL RECORD of creation, then it is logical
that it must be dealt with accordingly... otherwise it's existence mocks
a Holy God.

Originally Posted by elman

Your belief again. Not mine. The wicked being judged according to their works receive the spiritual death punishment.

How can they be judged according to their works when they disappear???
How does their sin remain in the historical record, but THEY escape the
punishment because they get to disappear???? This, my friend, is what
almost every agnostic and atheist WANTS. They want to disappear and
never have to suffer the logical consequences of their actions and their
violations against a Holy and Righteous God.

Originally Posted by elman

No I do not take away the consequences of sin and evil.

So hitler and the devil and the evil men in history all receive the same
punishment as everyone else who is annihilated???? Even those who
tried to do good, but fell short of perfection because they did not have
moral perfection in their place (the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross)???

This is even MORE unfair and is clearly UNJUST!!! With Christianity, God
judges people according to their works and they receive exact punishment
based on which things they did that trangressed against the law of God..

in your belief structure, everyone escapes equally the consequences of
their actions and never have to pay for it...or suffer for it.

Originally Posted by elman

I am in agreement with the bible that says the wages of sin is death.

So you take one verse in the English and extrapolate the meaning which
makes you feel better....

I decided many years ago never to believe what I want to believe, but
rather what I HAVE TO believe even if it is my worst nightmare to believe.

You can't bring an agenda what you want to believe to the text...what
you have to do is ignore the rest of scripture which clearly teaches the
following.

Originally Posted by elman

You are not satisfied with death as the consequences.

What does my personal satisfaction have to do with what scripture
clearly teaches???

Originally Posted by elman

You want torture and pain and sufferine and you want it to last forever.

Why in the name of all that is reasonable would I want that??? Would I
want that for myself??? I am just as guilty as everyone who ends up in
eternal hell... I am no better...and neither would I wish hell on my worst
enemy... It is by the grace of God that I too am not going there.

Originally Posted by elman

The Holy Nature of a Holy and Righteous God is to be loving and merciful, not to torture someone forever.

As long as you believe that sin can just disappear without ever having
to be paid for, you will continue to have an improper view of God's justice and make
false accusations against the Creator of the universe who will indeed
separate His glory from those who are guilty.

God is merciful to those who call upon Him. To those who do not
receive payment...they don't just get to escape the consequences of
their actions by being somehow annihilated. This would be their greatest
wish... and it would stand in the face of verses like Matthew 8:16, Mark 9:42, and Luke 17:2.

There ARE consequences for evil actions (sin) which transgress against
the Holy nature of the Creator! The ungodly do not get to escape by
somehow being annihilated. This is logically inconsistent with being
responsible for actions, and for there being consequences for actions.

Breckmin · #48 19th August 2009, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by elman

Not equally wicked and the ones who are saved and reborn are the ones who have turned from wickedness to righteousness Ezekiel 18

So you believe you somehow "deserve" to go to heaven because of your good
works????

Originally Posted by elman

Your belief again, not mine. We are not born fallen.

So you do not believe our flesh has a disposition to sin against God?

Originally Posted by elman

We are born connected to God just like Adam was in the garden of Eden and like Adam we all sin, if we live long enough and we get thrown out of the garder--our close relationship with God--Our spiritual existence.

So we have to work our way back to the garden?

Originally Posted by elman

We kill our own spiritual existence-our soul--with our own sin. Ezekiel 18. It is not killed by our father. After we have killed our own soul with our own sin, we can turn to righteousness and if we do, through the grace and mercy of God, God will recreate us spiritually--the second birth taught by Jesus to Nicodemus-- and then we shall live and not die. But if we do not turn to righteousness, we shall die and not live--Ezekiel 18.

How can a man be truly righteous without Christ??? The Ezekiel passage
is talking about blessing in this temporary lifetime...OTHERWISE we would
have to conclude that it is our own actions and our own righteousness
that gets us eternal life.

Originally Posted by elman

When you talk about being saved from more than just annihilation, you fail to account for the loss of eternal life with God---a terrible loss.

Not for those who already hate God and have spent a lifetime mocking
Him and hating Him. They get to escape under your belief - and they
get exactly what they want and never have to pay for their sin because
they simply disappear... Their sin and mocking of God will remain in human
history forever - and they never had to atone for it because they were
annihilated.

Breckmin · #49 19th August 2009, 09:47 PM

Re: Don't cheapen the Power of the Cross by forgetting that people
created in God's Image are eternal beings.

IOW, don't take away from the Power of the Cross by lessoning how
great a Salvation it is - and how much it saves you from.

Originally Posted by elman

Don't make God into an evil God who tortures people forever.

The first fallacy of this is that you would have no moral standard to
appeal to - to judge that the Creator is somehow "evil" - even if
God does something logically that you do not approve of.

Second, a Creator who deals with sin and its cosmic evil in the
universe and how it trangresses against His Holy Nature is NOT Himself
evil. He is JUST. And He renders to everyone who does not have Christ's moral Perfection a judgement according
to their WORKS (individually) and they don't just get to escape by disappearing - with the record of their sin being clearly in tact.

Think about what you are doing here. IF there is a logical eternal
separation because of the Holy Nature of God..and because He created
us in His Image and we are eternal beings...

THEN you are calling this Holy God "evil" if He separates eternal beings
from His Glory and punishes them.

Does Satan get to escape also???? With annihilation? Does Satan
never have to account for his evil here on earth?

Originally Posted by elman

Being in the image of God is not just about being eternal but is also about being loving. We are created eternal, unless we kill ourselves spiritually with our own sin. Ezekiel 18.

You isolate on Ezekial 18 and forget the rest of scripture which talks
about eternal hell and eternal torment. Do I need to quote these verses?

Originally Posted by elman

Then we are not eternal anymore.

So satan and all of the fallen angels are NOT eternal? They get to somehow be annihilated??? Why are they not already annihilated since
they are already judged? Is salvation open to them also? Or are they
judged already?

Originally Posted by elman

We are in the image of God when we are righteous--compassionate and loving toward others. When we are not loving we are not in the image of God who is love.

You are isolating on Love and inductively making it tantamount to
"Image" and you are forgetting all of the other characteristics which
demonstrate that we are created in God's Image. You are also forgetting
about logical justice and consequences for actions.

Originally Posted by elman

God created Adam and make Him eternal but He told Adam that when He sinned--ate of the tree he would die. When Adam was thrown out of the Garden Adam was no longer alive spiritually and was no longer eternal. He only because eternal if God gifted Him with eternal life and that only occured if Adam turned from disobediance to obedieance--the command we all must obey to have hope of eternal life--love.

So if we just "love" then we can somehow go to heaven? If we just
turn from disobedience to obedience (our actions) then we obey our
way back to God somehow? There is something missing here...and it
is not OUR work, my friend.

Originally Posted by elman

It was the same command before Jesus as after Jesus. Jesus, the word of God incarnate, came to remind us of what we already knew: that God is loving and mericful; and if we are to be His child and relate to Him we must also be loving. Matt 25:31 and following First John the gospel of John, chapters 13, 14, and 15

So Jesus was just here to set the example of how we should love?
There was nothing else that Jesus did that bought us back to the Father?

How do we get adopted by God, if we are already connected to God when
we are born?

IgnatiusOfAntioch · #50 20th August 2009, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Greekguy

For many years I have wondered about this very question...

No, God is all good. Take a look at this video and article, it does a pretty good job of explaning the problem of evil and suffering.

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm

YouTube - Short film: THE ATHEIST