I would not say surmise by way of thinking but empirical, being raised Catholic to Christian.. Every time I have asked this even to God.. And I would not state that there is a "Vantage" point but again merely empirical
. There is no answer..Pastors do not have an answer, when I have asked this on other forums people say that I'm lost, and that I need God..or they say that is just the way it is....
These answers are not good enough...
I just get sick and tired of seeing injustices in this sick world and wonder why God didn't just stop this atrocity before it happened....
God does not prevent all unloving a actions, because if He did, we would not be able to mature into loving beings and respond to His love with love.
__________________ I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die.
So the question is "why would God create Lucifer if He knew He would fall?"
The same question in theodicy is often asked with regards to billions of people going to eternal separation.... In fact, this question is where ALL roads lead to in theodicy...
Why would God create mankind in His Image, (Love requiring choice, choice without knowledge inevitably leading to evil) IF He knew that billions and billions of people would be eternally separated from Him for all of eternity???
How can a God of Love allow billions of people to be eternally separated from Him?
This is a great question..and one that we as Christians can often fast forward to, because after we answer all the other questions...we end up here when we take theodicy to it's logical ends.
But the answer is not so simple? Why? Because it involves multiple concepts and multiple cosmological principles in systematic theology that need to be pieced together... and we as "babes" in Christ are the only ones who have had our eyes opened to the light at the end of the answer (the eternal glory and fellowship with Christ for all of eternity) by the Power of the Holy Spirit. IOW, the world is blind to this answer.
Multiple concepts that need to be addressed: 1. How can you be Perfect unless you know how God loves you??? (The quality of self-sacrificing love from the Creator) 2. How can you be Perfect unless you have the knowledge necessary to never sin??? How can you be Perfect unless you are "free" from the potential of evil for all of eternity? 3. If everyone is saved...then no one is saved because there is nothing real to be saved from...and therefore no demonstration of salvation 4. Just like in the movie "National Treasure" when Harvey Keitel's character says "somebody has to go to prision.." the same thing is true that without a demonstration of consequences there is no knowledge of them... IOW, it is inevitable that somebody has to go to hell in order to see experentially, the consequences of evil/sin. 5. Whether one person goes to hell or whether 100 or whether 40 billion... believe it or not - when you take away the variable of fairness - the concept of 1 person is just as bad as billions because the numbers don't matter in relationship to eternity (however, of course they matter to the individual going to be separated). 6. There is no such thing as absolute"fairness" that is observable in the universe, therefore it is an illogical thing to appeal to. Even with robots or puppets in motion - they will have different experiences. Now try adding to that "choices." Everyone is born in a different place, at a different point in time, and in different circumstances. There is nothing "fair" about grace. There is nothing fair when it comes to experiences. 7. Why shouldn't God logically show a demonstration of love by saving millions out of billions? Clearly it is not "fair." Clearly God is adopting eternal children out of this temporary creation that is flawed with evil/sin. If God determines that the greater "good" is for eternal fellowship and LOVE to exist...is it logical to question it??? Or is it logical to submit to it and throw yourself on the Mercy of Almighty God???
I reserve the right to clarify imperfections and miscommunications which I have made above.
I think we all have the knowledge to know that being loving is good and being unloving is bad and this is all the knowledge that is required for us to sin--which is being unloving. I think you make it too complicated. God gave us the ability to love. If we do we have hope of grace which we need because none of us can love perfectly and completely as God can. It is a life and death issue. Hell is not life, but death. Heaven is not death, but life. What is unfair about the wicked not receiving the gift of eternal life?
__________________ I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die.
For many years I have wondered about this very question.. (writing in large font due to partial blindness...)
As a Christian, This is something I've always pondered...
When God created the Angels for himself for worship/ friendship I know that these beings came from God as he created them. As God is ALL KNOWING and HOLY and hates evil. When God seen that Lucifer was about to rebel along with taking 1/3 of the Angels with him. God being all knowing would have seen the evils that his Angelic creations would have caused unimaginable horrors to mankind - made in God Image. Don't you think that God would have said somthing like this to satan. You and the angels who are following you will do tremendous damage and evil to my next creation Man & Woman. Being the Holy God that I am I cannot let you harm my human creation, I will banish you and the angels that follow you from existence. Therefore you will not harm my creation and introduce evils ( Murders, Molestations, Lies, hate, envy and All other forms of Evil) to them, for you will cause horrible destruction therefore I will not let you go to Earth and you will be banished from existence and be no more. Earth is home of my Newest Creation Man & Woman.. They are off limits.. because I hate Evil.. cannot stand it nor tolerate it...
Please tell me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why would God let satan cause such terrible damage to this Earth and his Human creation for over 5 thousand years... And just wait till satan causes so much sickening death and destruction, and after thousands of years then he will execute judgment IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!
Why would God allow this?
This seems to go against every thing the bible says about God. If God is "Love" why would he allow such evil...
Is there something else we are not told about God?
I know that some will say " God is mysterious" and "That's just that way it is" or "Gods ways are not are ways"
These statements are not enough...
Anyone?
GreekGuy,
Of course God could have made robots of both the angels and man, but He is a God of love, so He wants people to love Him for what He has done for us and what He will do in the future. God is not responsible for the wickedness on earth!!! If God had foreordained everything man does, that would mean that all wickedness actually came from God, Himself, Deut 32:3-5, Job 34:10,12.
When God created man He told them what God's will was for them. They were to extend the Garden of Eden to take in the whole world, Gen 1:26-28.
When they rebelled against Him, He immediately issued a prophecy about the future, so that mankind would again come back into God's graces, Gen 3:15.
John 3:16, often called, THE GOSPEL IN MINIATURE, tells us of God's great love for His creation. God's PURPOSE for the earth has not changed!! God's purpose is to make this earth a paradise, Luke 23:43.
NOW, The reason for so much wickedness is because men have not obeyed God's WORD, The Bible. Something most do not understand is: SATAN is the ruler of this world, John 12:31,16:11, 2Cor 4:3,4, 1John 5:19, Rev 12:9,10.
Theology actually has a word for this; PANSATANISM, which means that this world is a manifestation of the personality of Satan himself.
We can see the most important point in man's history, called a Temporal Sign, was in 1914, with the start of World War 1. The Bible actually gives us the particulars at Rev 12:7-12, which occurred in the same year as WW1.
God has a particular time that He has appointed to judge the world in righteousness and set up a paradise earth, Acts 17:29-31, Rom 3:5,6.
You know, as well as I do, that we cannot have a paradise earth unless all the wicked one are removed, Ps 37:38, 92:7, Acts 3:22,23. That Great Day of Judgement is called ARMAGEDDON, and is pictured at Rev 21:11-21. After that time we will see what is recorded at Rev 21:3,4. God does not want to bring destruction upon mankind, but that is the only way this world can ever be peaceful, 2Pet 3:9,10, Rev 16:16. Notice 2Pet 3:7 says that the ungodly one will be destroyed.
So God did not cause mankinds troubles, but He intends to set matters straight and never allo this world to go off in a direction from Him. He is the Great Indemnifier.
GreekGuy,
Of course God could have made robots of both the angels and man, but He is a God of love, so He wants people to love Him for what He has done for us and what He will do in the future. God is not responsible for the wickedness on earth!!! If God had foreordained everything man does, that would mean that all wickedness actually came from God, Himself, Deut 32:3-5, Job 34:10,12.
When God created man He told them what God's will was for them. They were to extend the Garden of Eden to take in the whole world, Gen 1:26-28.
When they rebelled against Him, He immediately issued a prophecy about the future, so that mankind would again come back into God's graces, Gen 3:15.
John 3:16, often called, THE GOSPEL IN MINIATURE, tells us of God's great love for His creation. God's PURPOSE for the earth has not changed!! God's purpose is to make this earth a paradise, Luke 23:43.
NOW, The reason for so much wickedness is because men have not obeyed God's WORD, The Bible. Something most do not understand is: SATAN is the ruler of this world, John 12:31,16:11, 2Cor 4:3,4, 1John 5:19, Rev 12:9,10.
Theology actually has a word for this; PANSATANISM, which means that this world is a manifestation of the personality of Satan himself.
We can see the most important point in man's history, called a Temporal Sign, was in 1914, with the start of World War 1. The Bible actually gives us the particulars at Rev 12:7-12, which occurred in the same year as WW1.
God has a particular time that He has appointed to judge the world in righteousness and set up a paradise earth, Acts 17:29-31, Rom 3:5,6.
You know, as well as I do, that we cannot have a paradise earth unless all the wicked one are removed, Ps 37:38, 92:7, Acts 3:22,23. That Great Day of Judgement is called ARMAGEDDON, and is pictured at Rev 21:11-21. After that time we will see what is recorded at Rev 21:3,4. God does not want to bring destruction upon mankind, but that is the only way this world can ever be peaceful, 2Pet 3:9,10, Rev 16:16. Notice 2Pet 3:7 says that the ungodly one will be destroyed.
So God did not cause mankinds troubles, but He intends to set matters straight and never allo this world to go off in a direction from Him. He is the Great Indemnifier.
I agree of course with your first part of your post. I disagree with your interpretation of Revelation and others scripture in the sense that this world is never going to be paradise. Flesh and blood is not our destiny. Our destiny is a spiritual body in a spiritual realm with God who is a Spirit.
__________________ I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die.
God made, and controls all things. It's obvious that he has a hand in all things, good and evil. Actively, or passively, he's there.
While he may, or may not, have a hand actively in evil. It doesn't happen without his approval. Weather it be an active thumbs down, or a passive turned head.
I really don't believe that he cares what works. As long as it works. I'm pretty sure that he would rather get it done without evil. But the main thing is that it gets done.
This whole thing was created with a balance. A balance between good and evil. Without evil, we have no choice to make. No contrast for the task. This evil thing is a .....Ummm.... nessassery evil.
Add to this that God really hasn't much concern for our physical pain. He hears our prayers about it and responds. Through this process he stays in contact with our physical pain. But where the war is concerned (this is a war), our physical pain is at the bottom of the list of his considerations.
For me, the real bottom line is that it doesn't matter. What he does, and what he wants, is just that. And he's gonna get it.
Just for illustrations sake, lets say we found out that our God is a young God. Still full of anger and all that self centered child's stuff. And that he did these things because he's a little brat.
Would it really matter? He's God. It really doesn't matter why the rules are what they are. It doesn't matter why he "allows" stuff to happen. The only thing that really matters is----> Who's gettin on the bus?
Man is created in the Image of God and is a logical ETERNAL being.
"Death" just means separation NOT annihilation.
Originally Posted by elman
Hell is not life, but death.
Hell is two fold and you miss this.... 1. It is logical separation from
God's glory because God's Holy Nature can NOT tolerate the eternal
beings sin/evil - and they have become a tainted eternal creation.
2. They are judged according to their works... This includes pain
and suffering of some sort NOT annihilation.
What you do when you sugarcoat hell by making it annihilation is
you take away the severity of the consequences of sin and evil
and how it trangresses against the Holy Nature of a Holy and Righteous
God.
Originally Posted by elman
Heaven is not death, but life. What is unfair about the wicked not receiving the gift of eternal life?
Are we not ALL wicked before we are saved and receive Christ's Righteousness?
There is nothing "fair" about grace. We are born into a race
of fallen beings who are sons of disobedience and we are ADOPTED
by the price of BLOOD from God's Holy Son (the only time God became
a Man) and this MEANS something.... It is a GREAT salvation because
we are being saved from MUCH more than just annihilation...
Don't cheapen the Power of the Cross by forgetting that people
created in God's Image are eternal beings.
Last edited by Breckmin; 17th August 2009 at 09:41 PM.
Originally Posted by elman
It is a life and death issue.
Man is created in the Image of God and is a logical ETERNAL being.
"Death" just means separation NOT annihilation.
Your belief. Nothing more. Death is not separation and does not mean separation. It is the opposite of being alive.
Originally Posted by elman
Hell is not life, but death.
Hell is two fold and you miss this.... 1. It is logical separation from
God's glory because God's Holy Nature can NOT tolerate the eternal
beings sin/evil - and they have become a tainted eternal creation.
I have not missed it. I reject it as reality. We can assume a loving God or an evil God or a God that is both evil and loving. I assume the loving God. If you assume something else, it is simply that your assumption.
2. They are judged according to their works... This includes pain
and suffering of some sort NOT annihilation.
Your belief again. Not mine. The wicked being judged according to their works receive the spiritual death punishment.
What you do when you sugarcoat hell by making it annihilation is
you take away the severity of the consequences of sin and evil
and how it trangresses against the Holy Nature of a Holy and Righteous
God.
No I do not take away the consequences of sin and evil. I am in agreement with the bible that says the wages of sin is death. You are not satisfied with death as the consequences. You want torture and pain and sufferine and you want it to last forever. The Holy Nature of a Holy and Righteous God is to be loving and merciful, not to torture someone forever.
Originally Posted by elman
Heaven is not death, but life. What is unfair about the wicked not receiving the gift of eternal life?
Are we not ALL wicked before we are saved and receive Christ's Righteousness?
Not equally wicked and the ones who are saved and reborn are the ones who have turned from wickedness to righteousness Ezekiel 18
There is nothing "fair" about grace. We are born into a race
of fallen beings who are sons of disobedience and we are ADOPTED
by the price of BLOOD from God's Holy Son (the only time God became
a Man) and this MEANS something.... It is a GREAT salvation because
we are being saved from MUCH more than just annihilation...
Your belief again, not mine. We are not born fallen. We are born connected to God just like Adam was in the garden of Eden and like Adam we all sin, if we live long enough and we get thrown out of the garder--our close relationship with God--Our spiritual existence. We kill our own spiritual existence-our soul--with our own sin. Ezekiel 18. It is not killed by our father. After we have killed our own soul with our own sin, we can turn to righteousness and if we do, through the grace and mercy of God, God will recreate us spiritually--the second birth taught by Jesus to Nicodemus-- and then we shall live and not die. But if we do not turn to righteousness, we shall die and not live--Ezekiel 18. When you talk about being saved from more than just annihilation, you fail to account for the loss of eternal life with God---a terrible loss.
Don't cheapen the Power of the Cross by forgetting that people
created in God's Image are eternal beings.
Don't make God into an evil God who tortures people forever. Being in the image of God is not just about being eternal but is also about being loving. We are created eternal, unless we kill ourselves spiritually with our own sin. Ezekiel 18. Then we are not eternal anymore. We are in the image of God when we are righteous--compassionate and loving toward others. When we are not loving we are not in the image of God who is love. God created Adam and make Him eternal but He told Adam that when He sinned--ate of the tree he would die. When Adam was thrown out of the Garden Adam was no longer alive spiritually and was no longer eternal. He only because eternal if God gifted Him with eternal life and that only occured if Adam turned from disobediance to obedieance--the command we all must obey to have hope of eternal life--love. It was the same command before Jesus as after Jesus. Jesus, the word of God incarnate, came to remind us of what we already knew: that God is loving and mericful; and if we are to be His child and relate to Him we must also be loving. Matt 25:31 and following First John the gospel of John, chapters 13, 14, and 15
__________________ I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die.
God made, and controls all things. It's obvious that he has a hand in all things, good and evil. Actively, or passively, he's there.
While he may, or may not, have a hand actively in evil. It doesn't happen without his approval. Weather it be an active thumbs down, or a passive turned head.
I really don't believe that he cares what works. As long as it works. I'm pretty sure that he would rather get it done without evil. But the main thing is that it gets done.
This whole thing was created with a balance. A balance between good and evil. Without evil, we have no choice to make. No contrast for the task. This evil thing is a .....Ummm.... nessassery evil.
Add to this that God really hasn't much concern for our physical pain. He hears our prayers about it and responds. Through this process he stays in contact with our physical pain. But where the war is concerned (this is a war), our physical pain is at the bottom of the list of his considerations.
For me, the real bottom line is that it doesn't matter. What he does, and what he wants, is just that. And he's gonna get it.
Just for illustrations sake, lets say we found out that our God is a young God. Still full of anger and all that self centered child's stuff. And that he did these things because he's a little brat.
Would it really matter? He's God. It really doesn't matter why the rules are what they are. It doesn't matter why he "allows" stuff to happen. The only thing that really matters is----> Who's gettin on the bus?
-
It matters a great deal wheather God is good or evil or both. It matters a great deal why God, if He is good, allows us to be evil. If God is allowing us to be evil because that is the only way to allow us to be able to chose to be loving people, then it is clear that the wicked and unloving are not getting on the bus. And those of us who attempt to be loving can trust our loving Creator to be merciful with our mistakes and adopt us as His child. The only hand God has in evil is He created us with the ability to love and that carried with it the ability to not love which resulted in our creating evil--not God.
__________________ I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die.
The only hand God has in evil is He created us with the ability to love and that carried with it the ability to not love which resulted in our creating evil--not God.
With all respect, I don't think even one thing gets by God.
Which gives him a point, in all things, at which a decision must be made. Even the turning of a blind eye is participation. Because he CAN stop evil, and he allows it to continue, I believe that it's part of the formula.
I don't think that God is evil, or uses it like a swath. I'm just like you, I believe God is the embodiment of all things good. But I do see that there is participation. I mean..... I'm not blind over here.
This type of hyperbole turns new people away from us when they ask honest, and obvious questions. When we don't make sense, and then we say something lame like "Only God knows," or "God works in mysterious ways" and all we get back is a rolled eye, and a goodbye.
We have to do better than that. Not a lot of time left.
Also, we know that he has no problem being in the presence of evil. satan went right up there and had an argument with him about Job. God didn't say to him....No I wont meet you, I'll have to send Michael to handle that because I can't be in the presence of evil.
How about the most common question? Let's start with that.
You tell me. Counsel me here. I'm a young person thinking of God's path but something is troubling me. So I told myself that you would be the best person I know to answer it for me...... If God is so powerful, and good. Why does he allow so much pain and sorrow to take place?
Without adversity there is no growth as a Christian.
Consider any book or movie: there are heroes and heroines, there is adversity, there are adversaries, there is a background, there is love guiding the heroes and heroines.
Consider little children at play: they naturally 'play God' with their toys having 'good guys' fighting against 'bad guys'.
This concept is not therefore at all foreign to people.
Deeper purposes behind it all? Yes... but that is the main thrust of it. We are called to know God and it is through the Spirit of God in our hearts against adversity we come to truly know God.
As for the great evils of this world, that is a person's current perspective. Remember, for little children the little things are huge for them. They get booboos they scream about. When they have to wait a few minutes for something it seems like forever to them. When one grows up they see how quick that waiting was and how meaningless the travails.
We are actually given very little pain in comparison to the eternal reward before us.
God is eternal, we are small, God is outside time and creation: we are inside it.
One day all believers will see things as they truly are.
Evil is reality. In this world it exists because we create it. It is not just a mistaken perception.
__________________ I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die.
Annihilation is an outright LIE 
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