God knew what Lucifer would do just as He knew what Adam would do.
Originally Posted by Greekguy
When God created the Angels for himself for worship/ friendship I know that these beings came from God as he created them. As God is ALL KNOWING and HOLY and hates evil. When God seen that Lucifer was about to rebel along with taking 1/3 of the Angels with him. God being all knowing would have seen the evils that his Angelic creations would have caused unimaginable horrors to mankind - made in God Image. Don't you think that God would have said somthing like this to satan. You and the angels who are following you will do tremendous damage and evil to my next creation Man & Woman. Being the Holy God that I am I cannot let you harm my human creation, I will banish you and the angels that follow you from existence. Therefore you will not harm my creation and introduce evils ( Murders, Molestations, Lies, hate, envy and All other forms of Evil) to them, for you will cause horrible destruction therefore I will not let you go to Earth and you will be banished from existence and be no more. Earth is home of my Newest Creation Man & Woman.. They are off limits.. because I hate Evil.. cannot stand it nor tolerate it...
Please tell me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why would God let satan cause such terrible damage to this Earth and his Human creation for over 5 thousand years... And just wait till satan causes so much sickening death and destruction, and after thousands of years then he will execute judgment IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!
Why would God allow this?
This seems to go against every thing the bible says about God. If God is "Love" why would he allow such evil...
Is there something else we are not told about God?
I know that some will say " God is mysterious" and "That's just that way it is" or "Gods ways are not are ways"
In systematic theology we have a saying with regards to theodicy...
"How can you be Perfect and NOT know how much God loves you?" (this is imperfect in regards to "how much" because it is NOT quantifed but is rather in reference to knowing about God's self-sacrificing love towards us by becoming a Man and providing moral perfection in our place.
Lucifer was NOT created "perfect" but he was created "blameless in his ways." Adam was not created perfect either, but he was created "good." How can Adam be perfect if he doesn't even know the consequences for evil, or about the reality of good and evil?
There is so much to discuss here so I will make several posts.
Last edited by Breckmin; 17th August 2009 at 09:47 PM.
Love requires choice. Choice creates the potential for evil. Evil is inevitable witho
First, we need to remember that God is a Holy and Righteous and Perfect God...and there is NO unrighteousness or evil contained in the nature of God.
While God does bring forth "unrest" and calamity (evil circumstances) according to Isaiah 45:7... God does NOT create "sin" nor the evil actions of finite beings. God did not create sin, but rather sin is a potential bi- product of "choice" and the ability to choose. This is necessary in order to have "LOVE." You can't say "yes" if you can't say "no." You can't agree with God if you can't disagree. The necessity of love creates the need for choice. Choice creates the potential for evil... and evil is inevitable without learning the knowledge you need to never commit it (particularly once you are finally free from the bondage of a sin nature).
Lucifer's sin was clearly that of pride. (next post)
Lucifer was top dog... Lord Acton's quote actually applies to angels as well as men. "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Who should be number One except God Himself? Only God can handle it. Satan looking around and seeing all other angels lower than himself creates a set of circumstances for pride (there is also a question about being jealous of Adam in sources) and not logical humility. How unsatisfied he must have been to be a leader of the angels and yet not realize that "humility" was completely logical because it was God who had created him and he was still infinitely lower that the Infinite Creator. Lucifer lacked the absolute knowledge of logical humility in relation to an Infinite Creator and a finite created being. He became arrogant as top dog, rather than realize that His Creator was infinitely above him.
Last edited by Breckmin; 27th September 2009 at 06:18 PM.
The necessity of love creates the need for choice. Choice creates the potential for evil... and evil is inevitable without learning the knowledge you need to never commit it (particularly once you are finally free from the bondage of a sin nature).
Lucifer's sin was clearly that of pride. (next post
i would suggest smaller print for that LOL.....
But regardless you are way to go
God bless you my friend
The idea of true love requires free will
hugs,
Philothei
__________________ No one on this earth can avoid affliction; and although the
afflictions which the Lord sends are not great men imagine them
beyond their strength and are crushed by them. This is because
they will not humble their souls and commit themselves to the will
of God. But the Lord Himself guides with His grace those who are
given over to God's will, and they bear all things with fortitude
for the sake of God Whom they have so loved and with Whom they are
glorified for ever. It is impossible to escape tribulation in this
world but the man who is giver over to the will of God bears
tribulation easily, seeing it but putting his trust in the Lord,
and so his tribulations pass.
Is it logical for God to stop Lucifer from falling and becoming Satan?
Now the question is "could God have stopped Lucifer from falling?" Well, it is actually begging the question of "Is it logical for God to stop satan from exercising his choice to become prideful? because God was going to create a temporary creation for humankind to deal with the REAL problem of evil (not in explaining it - but rather how it is a danger to us as His children).
For the record, these larger prints are for someone with a visual
impairment of some sort and it makes it easier for them to read them. For God to create man (Adam and Eve) in His Image (cognitive and conscious image with artistic expression, the ability to create thoughts <with a brain> out of nothing, the mathematical ability and particularly speech ability) He is logically creating an "eternal being" with the ability to make choices (volition). Yet, God knows that at some point in eternal time, Adam will fall. It is inevitable...
Now here is the problem that many people face. When you begin to understand that in this instance, "eternity" is an infinite determiner, they begin to think of the evolutionist and a room full of monkey's typing for all of eternity.
This is quite different because for the evolutionist they are defying entropy and talking about "creating information" from random processes which is illogical and unobserved.
However, in Adam's case, this is not about creating information...this is about a basic "choice" of making the wrong choice at some point in time because of a lack of knowledge and experience to NEVER sin.
Adam did not know what eternal hell was. He had no experience. Moral consequences of this sort have to be LEARNED. Even a dog needs to be taught about the consequences of disobeying his master. He may have instincts for what he/she thinks he should do, but that does NOT include the absolute consequences which come from either making mistakes (like babies do) or watching others be punished for making those mistakes.
Last edited by Breckmin; 16th August 2009 at 11:03 PM.
For many years I have wondered about this very question.. (writing in large font due to partial blindness...)
As a Christian, This is something I've always pondered...
When God created the Angels for himself for worship/ friendship I know that these beings came from God as he created them.
First off, God did not create to get something. He created so that He might give something. That "something" is what we know as eternal life.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Jn3:16
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. Jn17:3
As God is ALL KNOWING and HOLY and hates evil. When God seen that Lucifer was about to rebel along with taking 1/3 of the Angels with him. God being all knowing would have seen the evils that his Angelic creations would have caused unimaginable horrors to mankind - made in God Image.
Don't you think that God would have said somthing like this to satan.
You and the angels who are following you will do tremendous damage and evil to my next creation Man & Woman.
God did tell Lucifer he would cause tremendous damage. (Read Eze.28:13-19)
Here we have a picture of God's discipline.
because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Heb.12:6
Lucifer was told he was wrong in what he desired but he did not believe the word of God therefore he was punished. First punishemnt was to be exiled from "among the firey stones in disgrace." He continued to be unrepentant therefore, second punishment, he was thrown to earth and made a spectacle of. Still Lucifer remained unrepentant so third punishment. The Lord caused the fire of Lucifer's own erroneous desires to consume him and be reduced to ashes.
The Lord never punishes sin or evil unless He has first given the truth of the matter. Just as it was in the Garden. Adam was told not to eat before he ate. Most people see Adam's sin as eating of the forbidden tree, but the reality is, the eating was only symptomatic of the real issue and that was he did not believe what the Lord said.
Please tell me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why would God let satan cause such terrible damage to this Earth and his Human creation for over 5 thousand years...
And just wait till satan causes so much sickening death and destruction, and after thousands of years then he will execute judgment IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!!
Why would God allow this?
This seems to go against every thing the bible says about God. If God is "Love" why would he allow such evil...
There is no "if" God is love. The scripture says He is.
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1Jn.4:8
The question you ask stems from our ignorance of Love. The fact is, He has allowed for this therefore, it is we who need to change our understanding of what love is and not try to make a declaration that the two cannot go together for a time. There are reasons for what we see in this world. Whether we fully understand those reasons is not the issue but will we trust the word of the Lord in the midst of it?
Is there something else we are not told about God?
No. Everything that we need to know and have the capacity to learn has been given.
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. Heb.1:1&2
Christ is the Word and that word has been recorded for us so that we might learn all that God has said.
I know that some will say " God is mysterious" and "That's just that way it is" or "Gods ways are not are ways"
Well, the reality is ... God is a mystery. BUT .... He has declared Himself to be known, so He is not to remain a mystery yet there will always be a certain amount of mystery while we are still learning.
These statements are not enough...
You're right on there and whosoever is willing to persevere in the truth will find the answers. They will be the ones who know God which, brings us right back to square one.
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. Jn17:3
Ultimately, the reason the Lord has done things the way He has is so we can know Him. This is not simply knowing about what He can do or give but knowing Him person to person. It is in this "knowing" that we have eternal life ... a life that is love, joy, peace etc within us, not simply around us.
The Lord could do what you want and remove all the evil right now or never allow for it at all but then you and I would never know what we are missing. We might imagine some of it but it would not be the reality within and that would not be right at all.
So the question is "why would God create Lucifer if He knew He would fall?"
The same question in theodicy is often asked with regards to billions of people going to eternal separation.... In fact, this question is where ALL roads lead to in theodicy...
Why would God create mankind in His Image, (Love requiring choice, choice without knowledge inevitably leading to evil) IF He knew that billions and billions of people would be eternally separated from Him for all of eternity???
How can a God of Love allow billions of people to be eternally separated from Him?
This is a great question..and one that we as Christians can often fast forward to, because after we answer all the other questions...we end up here when we take theodicy to it's logical ends.
But the answer is not so simple? Why? Because it involves multiple concepts and multiple cosmological principles in systematic theology that need to be pieced together... and we as "babes" in Christ are the only ones who have had our eyes opened to the light at the end of the answer (the eternal glory and fellowship with Christ for all of eternity) by the Power of the Holy Spirit. IOW, the world is blind to this answer.
Multiple concepts that need to be addressed: 1. How can you be Perfect unless you know how God loves you??? (The quality of self-sacrificing love from the Creator) 2. How can you be Perfect unless you have the knowledge necessary to never sin??? How can you be Perfect unless you are "free" from the potential of evil for all of eternity? 3. If everyone is saved...then no one is saved because there is nothing real to be saved from...and therefore no demonstration of salvation 4. Just like in the movie "National Treasure" when Harvey Keitel's character says "somebody has to go to prision.." the same thing is true that without a demonstration of consequences there is no knowledge of them... IOW, it is inevitable that somebody has to go to hell in order to see experientially, the consequences of evil/sin. 5. Whether one person goes to hell or whether 100 or whether 40 billion... believe it or not - when you take away the variable of fairness - the concept of 1 person is just as bad as billions because the numbers don't matter in relationship to eternity (however, of course they matter to the individual going to be separated). 6. There is no such thing as absolute"fairness" that is observable in the universe, therefore it is an illogical thing to appeal to. Even with robots or puppets in motion - they will have different experiences. Now try adding to that "choices." Everyone is born in a different place, at a different point in time, and in different circumstances. There is nothing "fair" about grace. There is nothing fair when it comes to experiences. 7. Why shouldn't God logically show a demonstration of love by saving millions out of billions? Clearly it is not "fair." Clearly God is adopting eternal children out of this temporary creation that is flawed with evil/sin. If God determines that the greater "good" is for eternal fellowship and LOVE to exist...is it logical to question it??? Or is it logical to submit to it and throw yourself on the Mercy of Almighty God???
I reserve the right to clarify imperfections and miscommunications which I have made above.
Last edited by Breckmin; 17th August 2009 at 09:53 PM.
No. God is NOT both good and evil. God is a Holy Righteous and Perfect Creator and we have been saved by His Grace and by His Grace alone through "faith" which He gives to us through the Power of His Holy Spirit.
In response to this, I will also say this.
Good and Evil are NOT exact opposites.... Good is the Standard by which "evil" is judged...Evil is NOT a standard by which to judge what is Good. What is Good is what is pleasing to our Holy Creator and His Nature and Goodness sets the absolute STANDARD for "good" in the universe He created (He and He alone is the Owner of the Universe.)
God is NOT in any way shape or form "evil.." although He does bring forth "judgment" and ill circumstances which can be seen as "evil" (Isaiah 45) but they are for His Righteous purposes.
God knew what Lucifer would do just as He knew what Adam would do. 
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