Why did the Trinity ask people to kill their friends and brothers?
I'm talking about Exodus 32 (please read the full chapter).
This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "
God was jealous because they were dancing around an idol and asked their brothers and friends to kill them. What's the Orthodox explanation? Why would the Trinity do that?
Yeah its a frightening situation but not all of the Bible is as we would like it to be. The 10 commandments were issued and there was specific warning given not to transgress the Law especially as regards to idolatry etc.and making a golden calf constituted this. We do not judge these people who made this error and we can pray for their souls but the fear of the Lord is a real and terrible thing. Since the ancient Hebrews were given direct divine revelation more was required (as echoed by Jesus Christ in Luke 12:48) but to the bulk of humanity this was not so, "...God, which made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways." (Acts 14:15-16). The promise of life or death was given again by God in Deuteronomy 30 and is now fully revealed in the incarnation, life, death, & resurrection of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.' (John 13:17).
I think something else to consider, is that if God is a God of mercy and love, then what He does is merciful and loving. so one could ask how could a merciful God do something like that? well one answer could be that by them dying, they ceased sinning. so God could have ordered that so that the people didn't become so sinful that they would have been lost forever.
you could say, well doesn't that make them lost forever? not necessarily, because in the New Testament it is stated that Christ preached to those in Hades. so there could be souls who repented of offending God and worshiping the calf, so when Christ died, they would have accepted His offer of salvation and are now in Paradise.
another way to think about it is that could does use bad things to bring about the good. God could know (being God and all knowing) that only something traumatic would make someone repent enough to come to the Kingdom. so He could strike that person with cancer, who then turns to God as he is dying. that faithful witness in death could also have a huge affect on the repentance of those around the man dying.
__________________ "Everyone capable of thanksgiving is capable of joy and eternal salvation." -Fr. Alexander Schmemann
"The time of the end, though it seems to be near, we do not know. Let us then struggle while it is still day, with the time and the weapons which our All-merciful God has given us!" -Fr. Seraphim Rose
Thank you for your replies. I had learned something about the case of Sodom and Gomorrah similar to ArmyMatt's comment, however in this chapter the punishment isn't done by God himself.
Originally Posted by ArmyMatt
God could know (being God and all knowing) that only something traumatic would make someone repent enough to come to the Kingdom. [...] that faithful witness in death could also have a huge affect on the repentance of those around the man dying.
ArmyMatt, the trauma caused by killing one's own brothers and friends had a good effect to the people who did the killing? The interpretations explain the reason why the dancers were killed, but don't clarify why God didn't do something to them himself. The righteous people who didn't commit idolatry had to kill in God's name.
ArmyMatt, the trauma caused by killing one's own brothers and friends had a good effect to the people who did the killing?
possibly, they could see where sin takes humanity. I mean I don't know for sure, because I am not in the mind of an all seeing God, and I wasn't there, and I haven't been to Paradise or Hades to as them their take on what happened. however, from our perspective, God is a loving and merciful God, and everything He does is for man's benefit, even when we don't fully understand it.
__________________ "Everyone capable of thanksgiving is capable of joy and eternal salvation." -Fr. Alexander Schmemann
"The time of the end, though it seems to be near, we do not know. Let us then struggle while it is still day, with the time and the weapons which our All-merciful God has given us!" -Fr. Seraphim Rose
God is a loving and merciful God, and everything He does is for man's benefit
Well, ArmyMatt, I don't agree with the idea of the Trinity being loving and merciful - and this not a unbased personal opinion, it's well documented in the Bible. I see no benefit in causing bloody wars either. There are plenty of stories like this. Let's read some more, for the readers to consider if they really see love and mercy in them. Remember that "Lord" and "God" refers to "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" while reading all passages .
Exodus 12:29-30. Here, the Trinity killed babies, young men, and even animals. Imagine the pain of the innocent parents who didn't even had a chance to listen about who was this God:
At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt [...] there was not a house without someone dead.
Numbers 15:32-35. Here, the Trinity asked people to stone somebody because he was gathering wood in a bad day:
While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. [...] Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp."
Deuteronomy 7. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit didn't only ask the chosen people to destroy their enemies totally with no mercy, but also to avoid diplomatic teatries. God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit ordered believers to be intolerant towards other religions, to burn their temples and to kill them. Just like early Christians were persecuted in the name of emperors and other gods, pagans were persecuted in the name of the Trinity because of their beliefs. It was a real holy genocide:
When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations [...] larger and stronger than you- and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
[..]
This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. For you are a people holy to the LORD your God.
In 1 Samuel 15, the Trinity asks the chosen people to terminate an entire nation one more time , even their children and their animals, because of something their forefathers did 400 years before, in spite of what God had said before in Deuteronomy 24:16:
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
Numbers 3. The loving, merciful God wanted his soldiers to keep killing people in his name. The general Moses got angry when not every person where killed. However, Israelites were allowed to keep the virgin ladies for themselves sometimes (you can imagine what for):
Moses was angry. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Joshua 6. The broadly known episode of the trumpets that destroyed a city walls has bloody details. The people of God went after the mundane treasures. As usual, even the youth and animals simply had to die:
All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the LORD and must go into his treasury. [...] They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
2 Chronicles 25:11-12. The killing done in the name of God was always violent. See what was done to captives in this case:
The army of Judah also captured ten thousand men alive, took them to the top of a cliff and threw them down so that all were dashed to pieces.
Isaiah 34. Isaiah, the prophet that talked so much about the Messiah, also talked about how God was a god of war and blood:
The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter. The sword of the LORD is bathed in blood [...] Their land will be drenched with blood, and the dust will be soaked with fat.
No definition of "loving" or "merciful" accepts it all.
Last edited by Kosmofilo; 7th August 2009 at 07:13 AM.
Isn't that a wonder then! That the Creator made the creature more loving and merciful than Himself!!!
Why would He do that, lover of the world? What is your explanation?
__________________ How the Orthodox interpret scripture: "Certain brethren came and asked Abba Anthony a question about the Book of the Levites, and the old man went forth to the desert, and Abba Ammon, who knew his habit, followed him secretly. And when the old man had gone some distance, he cried out with a loud voice, and said. "O God, send Moses unto me, and let him teach me [the meaning of] this verse;" and straightway a voice was heard holding converse with him. Now Abba Ammon heard this voice, and said, "I heard the voice which spake with him, but the force of the verse I never learned." – The Paradise of the Holy Fathers
Well, ArmyMatt, I don't agree with the idea of the Trinity being loving and merciful
of course you don't, if you did you would be a Christian. the problem is that you think that physical death is the worst thing out there. it isn't. the worst thing is the death of the soul. if God uses physical death to save the soul, then it is loving, especially if that's the only thing that will bring about repentance.
it doesn't matter how long you suffer on earth, it's still not even a drop in the bucket when compared to eternity. so even 50 years of terrible suffering is nothing compared to an eternity of bliss and joy.
__________________ "Everyone capable of thanksgiving is capable of joy and eternal salvation." -Fr. Alexander Schmemann
"The time of the end, though it seems to be near, we do not know. Let us then struggle while it is still day, with the time and the weapons which our All-merciful God has given us!" -Fr. Seraphim Rose
It's actually disturbing that the creatures keep calling the Creator "loving and merciful" in spite of everything. There are many more stories to be quoted if those weren't enough.
Originally Posted by icxn
Why would He do that, lover of the world? What is your explanation?
I didn't know that cosmos meant "world" too. Anyway, I came here to ask your explanation.
Originally Posted by ArmyMatt
if God uses physical death to save the soul, then it is loving, especially if that's the only thing that will bring about repentance.
Fetuses and children need repentance from what? Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.
Remember that you talked about 50 years of terrible suffering caused by the jealous God (he even says that's Jealous is his name in Exodus 34:14) to innocent people who couldn't do anything. There was no chance for repetence when the soldiers of God came to kill everybody in his name.
You ignore the Bible quotes. They talk about the genocide of babies and animals, people being thrown off a cliff, corpses being exposed: Numbers 25:4
The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the LORD's fierce anger may turn away from Israel."
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit needed the faithful to kill people and expose their corpses in order to His anger turn way. This is not love nor mercy.
Before replying, please read all quotes again. I didn't mention a godly euthanasia, but several bloodly massacres.
Last edited by Kosmofilo; 7th August 2009 at 09:08 AM.
for starters, God calling Himself jealous and wrathful does not mean what you think it means. God is dispassionate, so jealousy and wrath are NOT from God's perspective, but from that of a sinful person in His Presence.
now, God can command others to kill, as He did to keep the nation of Israel together so that He can bring forth the Messiah. God, being love, does not violate man's free will, so He works with our fallenness to show us His Will. so yeah, He will command people to slaughter others in the OT, to keep Israel together so that Christ will come into the world, so that when Christ dies and is Resurrected, the very people that were killed in the OT, can follow Him to Paradise.
the Trinity doesn't need people to do anything, least of all take the very life that He gives, and belongs to Him.
forgive me, but Orthodox Christianity has been around for 2000 years, we have heard the whole God is a bloody murderer argument. the Orthodox answer is that God is loving, so we see everything that God does in that light. if you come here with an agenda to try to show us how God is a barbarian, we have heard it before.
__________________ "Everyone capable of thanksgiving is capable of joy and eternal salvation." -Fr. Alexander Schmemann
"The time of the end, though it seems to be near, we do not know. Let us then struggle while it is still day, with the time and the weapons which our All-merciful God has given us!" -Fr. Seraphim Rose
Linear Mode
