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[quote=AngelusSax;52629615]It may not technically be Lutheran, but the sooner we admit that we use it, the better. Personally, I happen to be a Lutheran who ascribes to the Wesleyan Quadrilateral, and most of my doctrine still comes up Lutheran.
quote]
But the issue is also, even if you use them all, and even Luther at times appealed to the others, that they should not hold equal ground. CB contends that the "liberals" are using reason and experience as the greatest forms and the "conservatives" use scripture and tradition. Personally I think it still should be scripture on the high ground and reason, tradition, and experience down below.
As much as I think it can be useful, I think the HC is much to blame for this leveling of scripture (if not lowering) with the other three methods of interpretation. But that is another rant.
I think liberals tend to place a greater emphasis on reason and experience than conservatives, but I would hesitate to claim that many or the majority of them place those two things above Scripture. Some do, of course, but then some conservatives take "Scripture Alone" to a place it was never intended to go, forsaking all else including the possibility of a mis-interpretation of Scripture on their part.
Not sure about the current ELCA leadership, whether they are placing experience and reason and such on the same level as Scripture or above it. It appears that is what they are doing, appealing to reason or even emotions in a "live and let live" kind of way. Perhaps they are simply trying to contain the firestorm of controversy, but if so, they suck at it.
__________________ Don't fear tomorrow And don't fear the night It's where God repairs sorrows That enter your life -TSO
The world isn't the way it's supposed to be. That's why there's us. Champions. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be. -TV's Angel
If you want to arrange it, this world you can change it, if we could just somehow make this Christmas thing last... By helping a neighbor, or even a stranger, and to know who needs help, you need only just ask. -TSO
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Location: MinneSO-TA. That's how they say it here, right?
Posts: 610
Blessings: 32,486
Reps: 5,958,310,033,033 (power: 5,958,310,037)
Originally Posted by AngelusSax
Not sure about the current ELCA leadership, whether they are placing experience and reason and such on the same level as Scripture or above it. It appears that is what they are doing, appealing to reason or even emotions in a "live and let live" kind of way. Perhaps they are simply trying to contain the firestorm of controversy, but if so, they suck at it.
I will remain ELCA regardless of what happens at the assembly in a few days. There is an LCMS option close by, but for my own opinion/theology/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I place a much greater emphasis on open communion for all baptized Christians, and the allowance of the ordination of women, than the currently debated issue within the ELCA.
Besides, if I think it's in error on this, I can't ever hope to help change it by becoming a voting member if I leave altogether.
__________________ Don't fear tomorrow And don't fear the night It's where God repairs sorrows That enter your life -TSO
The world isn't the way it's supposed to be. That's why there's us. Champions. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be. -TV's Angel
If you want to arrange it, this world you can change it, if we could just somehow make this Christmas thing last... By helping a neighbor, or even a stranger, and to know who needs help, you need only just ask. -TSO
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I will remain ELCA regardless of what happens at the assembly in a few days. There is an LCMS option close by, but for my own opinion/theology/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I place a much greater emphasis on open communion for all baptized Christians, and the allowance of the ordination of women, than the currently debated issue within the ELCA.
There are other options outside of the Lutheran denomination. I have a feeling the debate will soon be over soon as more and more people who are opposed to the changes leave the ELCA. Those who remain will be in agreement with each other.
There are other options outside of the Lutheran denomination. I have a feeling the debate will soon be over soon as more and more people who are opposed to the changes leave the ELCA. Those who remain will be in agreement with each other.
There are, yes. For my location, the two closest denominations in terms of theology that are in affordable driving distance are United Methodist and Episcopalian... and the latter, if I understand correctly, is one step ahead of where the ELCA seems to be going in regards to this issue (though I may not have understood correctly, it happens).
__________________ Don't fear tomorrow And don't fear the night It's where God repairs sorrows That enter your life -TSO
The world isn't the way it's supposed to be. That's why there's us. Champions. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be. -TV's Angel
If you want to arrange it, this world you can change it, if we could just somehow make this Christmas thing last... By helping a neighbor, or even a stranger, and to know who needs help, you need only just ask. -TSO
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My thoughts exactly. I am committed to the ELCA and to reform within it. I'm glad to hear you are too.
Pax
I admire that you guys are planning to stay and fight for what you believe is right. How do you plan to do this though? A part of me wants to stay and fight, but another part says its time to get out.
I have, in my own little way, tried to stay and fight. I even became the Council President at my church. I have not had any luck getting others to act like they really even care about this whole thing. In fact, I have wanted to get the congregation together to talk about what we believe in regards to the human sexuality issues, but the pastor quickly shot that idea down. I feel like all of my efforts have fallen on deaf ears. It kind of makes one think that God's plans do not include me leading my church in a fight against this thing.
So, if I'm not going to fight, that means I can either sit quietly and let my church go down a path that I believe is very much wrong and very much against the will of God, or I can leave. In the second scenario I might be able to find a church that is willing to follow God at all costs, rather than one that changes its Biblical beliefs to fit modern society.
Well, I am still open to either side of this issue based on actual theology, not on the social statement's way of "addressing" the issue. However, for the purposes of this post, let's assume I come to the conclusion I once held firmly and dearly - that homosexuality is a sin in all its forms, and gays should be celibate or become straight.
In that scenario, I would fight by the use of open letters, for one. If I get enough gumption, I could drive to "HQ" and nail my 95 ideas to a door... surely the symbolism would not be lost if nothing else.
Also, I would try to get on church council and such. I would try to become a voting member of the general assembly in the future. My plans right now actually are leaning toward going to seminary, either for church music or M.Div. If I wind up M.Div, based on my discernment of call, then one day, as a pastor, I would be in a position to encourage my congregation to talk about this (and other) issue(s).
Perhaps I could strap on filthy underwear and run around the general assembly, saying that this is what we have become... I don't know.
All I do know is that there is one philosophy I hold to regardless of other circumstances: It doesn't matter in the end whether we win or we lose. It doesn't matter how many good things we do or how many people we help. None of it matters. And when nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do.
Please note: I do think our actions matter, but not for reasons of us atoning for our errors (I know, how "outside the box" of me, heheh). But even if we were to receive proof or revelation that our actions don't matter at all in determining any outcome of anything, either temporal or eternal, then all that matters is what we do.
To put it another way, even if you know your fight is a losing fight, as long as it is the good fight, then it is worth fighting.
__________________ Don't fear tomorrow And don't fear the night It's where God repairs sorrows That enter your life -TSO
The world isn't the way it's supposed to be. That's why there's us. Champions. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be. -TV's Angel
If you want to arrange it, this world you can change it, if we could just somehow make this Christmas thing last... By helping a neighbor, or even a stranger, and to know who needs help, you need only just ask. -TSO
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I will remain ELCA regardless of what happens at the assembly in a few days. There is an LCMS option close by, but for my own opinion/theology/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, I place a much greater emphasis on open communion for all baptized Christians, and the allowance of the ordination of women, than the currently debated issue within the ELCA.
I too share the same emphasis on open communion and ordination of women when choosing church.
But I've been learning quite a lot out of this debated issue. I have learned things that I have never heard or really learned before about Lutheranism (considering my later Reformed upbringing), such as bound conscience, Right hand and Left hand of God, Law and Gospel. When you have a current hot topic/problem to solve, people try to bring out the best out of these principles, even though they may end at different conclusions. I am used to this kind of problem-based learning ( that's how they taught me in the Univ).
I have some links to share concerning the open letter, but I need 2 more posts to be able to post links. So let me junk on other threads first
Hooray (sarcastic) for the ELCA....
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