"Pro-Choice" or "Pro-Life"

Archivist · #**391** 26th January 2010, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Phinehas2

Try giving property rights to a newly born baby.

Actually under the law a newly-born baby has property rights. Those rights might have to be exercised through the parents or a guardian, but they do exist.

united4Peace · #**392** 26th January 2010, 01:05 PM

I do however believe that one should not use abortion as a b/c and if a female is pregnant and not iwth the father...relationship does not work that if he wants the baby to abort it or give it up for adoption is cruel as the father should be able to raise the baby...(unless she was raped which then the father loses all rights to the baby)...just my opinion and MOO

lux et lex · #**393** 26th January 2010, 01:06 PM

On a note, you can give property rights to a newly born baby. Anyone who is living when the testator dies can receive them. They will generally be put into a trust until the child turns 18. But let's not derail this discussion with matters of property rights.

I believe I made it clear, and perhaps I didn't because both you and seajoy are stumbling at the same point is that a baby is transferable and able to survive without its mother. It can merely be transferred to another person and it will survive just fine. You cannot transfer a fetus to another person or hook it up to a machine (as of yet) to cause it to live. Without the womb it will not survive. With your reasoning a child is not a person because it cannot exist without a parent to feed it and so forth. I'm not going that far. If something can survive in the outside world with the aid of another, it is alive. If it cannot, it is not. Simple as that.

seajoy · #**394** 26th January 2010, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by lux et lex

On a note, you can give property rights to a newly born baby. Anyone who is living when the testator dies can receive them. They will generally be put into a trust until the child turns 18. But let's not derail this discussion with matters of property rights.

I believe I made it clear, and perhaps I didn't because both you and seajoy are stumbling at the same point is that a baby is transferable and able to survive without its mother. It can merely be transferred to another person and it will survive just fine. You cannot transfer a fetus to another person or hook it up to a machine (as of yet) to cause it to live. Without the womb it will not survive. With your reasoning a child is not a person because it cannot exist without a parent to feed it and so forth. I'm not going that far. If something can survive in the outside world with the aid of another, it is alive. If it cannot, it is not. Simple as that.

I think you just demonized me by saying I'm stumbling. That wasn't very nice.

Phinehas2 · #**395** 26th January 2010, 01:11 PM

To Archivist,

Interesting because I haven't addressed that subject. What I did address was your misuse of the word "murder."

But it wasn’t a misuse and the fact that conception and gestation are the only objective observable beginning of life tht isnt subjective is rather crucial to the subject.

When you are willing to discuss that issue and offer facts in support of your position, I will be willing to debate the point. Otherwise thsi is a waste of my time.

Good, your choice.

Are you? I'm not, but I have read the writings oif those who are.

So have I and the ones who wrote the Bible translations, but it wasn’t me who disputed them it was you so that’s why I asked you.
I believe the experts who agree with all the experts who wrote the Bible translations.

Of course it says murder. If you are saying otherwise show me which translations don’t.

The King James Version and many others don't use the term murder.

yes they do frequently.

Perhaps you are not familiar with it, but the King James is one of the best-known translation.

Is English not your native language? We can all trade sarcasm.
The Bible says do not murder in several places, that is the point.

Actually, many translations, including the King James, use the term kill, not murder. Did you actually take the time to read what I wrote? The term used in the Bible is actually much closer to what we now call homicide, not murder.

Actually the King James version mentions murder several times so you are wrong. As to ‘don’t not murder, you are correct it says do not kill, but you cant make such incorrect blanket statements; abortion is still killing a life, I will use murder and you can use kill.

You are not getting this. Abortion isn't murder because it isn't an illegal killing

It is you who isnt getting it, I seek to follow God’s purposes.
Pro-choice explicit in the word ‘choice’ means pre meditated.

Phinehas2 · #**396** 26th January 2010, 01:13 PM

To Archivist,

Actually under the law a newly-born baby has property rights. Those rights might have to be exercised through the parents or a guardian, but they do exist.

So how does that help your point if they have to be excercised by a guardian, in what way is the newly born baby any more able to do anything with property rights than the foetus? Dont tell me the foetus can't live in the same house as the mother.

lux et lex · #**397** 26th January 2010, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by seajoy

I think you just demonized me by saying I'm stumbling. That wasn't very nice.

Stumbling over a point? No, that was more a reflection of myself that I wasn't being clear enough because you both seemed to not be understanding what I was saying. Calm down.

seajoy · #**398** 26th January 2010, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by lux et lex

Stumbling over a point? No, that was more a reflection of myself that I wasn't being clear enough because you both seemed to not be understanding what I was saying. Calm down.

I'm very calm, thank you for your concern.

Archivist · #**399** 26th January 2010, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Phinehas2

So how does that help your point if they have to be excercised by a guardian, in what way is the newly born baby any more able to do anything with property rights than the foetus? Dont tell me the foetus can't live in the same house as the mother.

Your initial statement was "Try giving property rights to a newly born baby. Good luck."

The fact is that newly born nabies have property rights. Whether they can exercise them or not is irrelevent, they have them. In the United States citizenship begins at birth and the 14th Amendment specifically provides: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

I have asked you repetedly to provide facts to back up various statements that you have made in this thread. You have consistantly failed to do so. Please quit trying to substitute opinion for fact.

EnemyPartyII · #**400** 26th January 2010, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Phinehas2

To EnemyPartyII
Who was it then that was the foetus? [/font][/color]

NO ONE was the foetus, because the foetus isn't a person. That is the entirety of my point

But as far as I am concerned and many like me we were all people at the foetus stage, so all life at that stage.

No one is saying the foetus isn't ALIVE. It is totally ALIVE, it just isn't a person.

Well in Adam we all die and in Christ we all live, the Exodus 21 passage says "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life" God has shown His love and life for His creation, not the death in sin of the law.

Um... if there is serious injury to the woman, you are to take life for life. If you cause a miscarriage, you inly have to pay a fine, and even then, only if the woman's husband wishes.

Which is a very different penalty to what you get if you kill a PERSON

So the NT is worng for you then and the OT right? Do you follow all the OT law or not?

The NT doesn't mention abortion, or tell us anything about when a foetus becomes a person. I know, I know "the child leapt in my womb". I tell you again, this is a poetic metaphor, it is NOT intended as a literal description or a discussion about when personhood begins.