I spoke specifically to the sharing of faith. I did not want the discussion limited only to those who were bent on converting me.
I came to the internet utterly disillusioned as to the willingness of Christians to extend fellowship. I have been no more encouraged by those I encounter in real life than I have those I encounter here.
One gets the impression that to the churched, my only defining characteristic is that I do not hold to the correct propositions. If I seem receptive, they will hand me a list. If I do not accept, there is nothing more that is needful to know about me. I have stepped beyond the pale of humanity and have become as a swine to the possessors of pearls. I have become a leper whom Christ will never touch, an outsider separated forever, my final separation from those holding pearls the ultimate Christian fantasy.
It seems as though there are two Christs, one made of light and one made of darkness...
Thank you.
Is it because you like to talk about religious topics, do you think? Some people get very defensive whenever someone who doesn't share their beliefs attempts to talk religion- the Evangelical response tends to ultimately boil down to a turn or burn type of thing. Do you live in the bible belt by any chance? The geographical location plus a very particular type of religious sect that gained popularity in the region, can make a difference in how people respond to you if you're not one of them. I too get various negative responses from some folks who try to convert me too.
Anyway, I dunno, I know quite a few atheists as friends, co-workers, and family members and we get along fine.
__________________
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"Why do you increase your bonds? Take hold of your life before your light grows dark and you seek help and do not find it. This life has been given to you for repentance; do not waste it in vain pursuits."~St. Isaac the Syrian
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Is it because you like to talk about religious topics, do you think? Some people get very defensive whenever someone who doesn't share their beliefs attempts to talk religion- the Evangelical response tends to ultimately boil down to a turn or burn type of thing. Do you live in the bible belt by any chance? The geographical location plus a very particular type of religious sect that gained popularity in the region, can make a difference in how people respond to you if you're not one of them. I too get various negative responses from some folks who try to convert me too.
Anyway, I dunno, I know quite a few atheists as friends, co-workers, and family members and we get along fine.
Yes. I do live in the Bible belt.
Ack! I'm tired of feeling sorry for myself on account of all of this. And I didn't start this topic with the intention of speaking out against Christianity, so I'm going to stop the anti-apologetics. Please just take it as a peek into my mind on the subject (for what it's worth) and know that it is generally offered up with genuine puzzlement and no small degree of broken-heartedness.
Anyway, thanks for the kind words. It does seem that although the initial answer to my question has been more or less "nothing," the reality of this thread is that you and others have talked to me quite nicely, so it isn't as bad as it seemed to sound at first.
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The House of Self-Collection
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
I hope I don't make "atheistic pronouncements." I like to show my reasoning. It seems to me that if I cannot or if I will not then I have no right to dump my conclusions on unsuspecting passersby as if they alone meant something.
MY DEAR BROTHER,
You have no idea how refreshing that sounds!
Originally Posted by InkBlott
I find that, though I once very much liked, for instance, that Jesus made of point of touching, speaking to and even asking questions of those who were the outcasts of his society, I find that I can no longer ignore that he at times seemed to be doing nothing more than reshuffling the old ingroups and outgroups. For instance, in Matthew 7, one finds him referring to certain individuals as pigs, wolves and dogs (what I have come to think of as the triune dehumanizing insults after the frequency with which I have seen them used against perceived outsiders). I simply cannot continue to separate the two aspects of his teachings any longer. The tender feelings of hope against hope formed by the former, find themselves folded into the expressions of the latter, so that the hurt from the insults becomes all the more.
My brother--you need to rethink this wrong conception you have formed regarding the implications of our Lord's words! They refer to a state of mind and heart, not to racial or cultural differences.
"Dogs" and "swine" refer to heathen peoples, but would also include Jews who do not practice virtue as per the teachings of the Law. According to the Early Church Fathers, dogs are those so immersed in evil that they show no hope of change, while swine are those who habitually live immoral and impure lives in rebellion against God's commandments. The pearls are the inner mysteries of the Christian faith, including Christ's teachings--think "The Pearl of Great Price. These holy things are to be kept from the immoral and unrepentant, not to protect the holy things themselves, for obviously Christ needs no protection and His teachings are safe for all eternity in the heart of the Father and the hearts of believers. Rather, the exhortation is that we protect the faithless people themselves from the condemnation that would result from their holding God's Word in contempt.
The same idea is put forth in the story of the Gentile woman of great faith--Matthew 15:21-28--in which story, having evoked this woman's love and persistent faith, Christ reveals her humility--the greatest of all virtues in God's eyes. Christ's hesitancy was not a lack of compassion, but a conscious means of revealing the virtues of this woman, both to the disciples and onlookers and for her own sake. Humility is lacked by both dogs and swine; by exhibiting it for all to see, our Lord showed her to be neither in God's eyes.
This idea can be seen in the Church itself from the beginning in that non-believers were not allowed access to the deeper teachings of the Church until they became cleansed through Baptism after which, as Paul observed, "Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."(Colossians3:11)
Originally Posted by InkBlott
Love in its purest form is subsequently held hostage by, manipulated by and turned to the service of a particularly wretched despair ruled by the fear of one's fellow human being. What do we do with a Christ who prompts us to see to the log in our own eye in one breath and in nearly the next breath encourages us to think of certain others as if they were not quite human? It would have been better to have been left alone as I for one can now barely wrench any love whatsoever free.
This is heart-breaking to see you so misperceive and misunderstand the TOTALITY of God's Love towards ALL due to a misinterpreting of a few sentences taken out of context whose meaning is diametrically opposed to that which is mistakenly and inaccurately applied to it.
Have you not personally met Jesus yet and seen and experienced His Heart of Love for all for yourself?
Originally Posted by InkBlott
Who will save us now?
Meh. I'm weary. I'm weary of being called a pig, a dog, a wolf, demon possessed and a fool as if I were an enemy to him. In the end, I suppose I am. I suppose I have become his enemy, when I would rather to have had him as a brother.
MY DEAR BROTHER--WHERE DID THIS STUFF COME FROM???? Not from the God of Love of Whom we are speaking! Are you perhaps allowing the evil one to play with your mind and turn you from the Light?
REGROUP!--MEET YOUR LORD FACE TO FACE AND SEE HIM AS HE IS!!!!!!!!!
YOU ARE HIS BROTHER!
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE THE TRUTH!
A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim
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Lo, i have gathered up all of my thoughts and cannot recall anything good before Thee . . .
except the fact that i know no other God than Thee. --Saint Ephraim the Syrian LORD JESUS CHRIST, HUMBLE LAMB OF GOD, have mercy on me, an arrogant sinner!
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How did you find Christian Forums? I'm just interested to know.
I found a link to CF on the old Internet Infidels Discussion Board. How did you find CF?
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The House of Self-Collection
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
By the way, ephraimanesti, I am going to answer your last post. I'm giving consideration to what you've said and how best to reply. I want to wait until my thinking on it has settled a little and also until I can post when I'm reasonably well rested.
__________________
The House of Self-Collection
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
My brother--you need to rethink this wrong conception you have formed regarding the implications of our Lord's words! They refer to a state of mind and heart, not to racial or cultural differences.
Thank you for allowing me the time necessary to consider and find a feel for my reply. I do occasionally rethink my conceptions regarding the gospels. I have been, over the last years and a half, been doing just that. Though I do feel reasonably confident in the conclusions I've reached thus far, I'm not adverse to back-tracking significantly in order to weigh new information or test a new framework.
Perhaps we might begin by recognizing that one's state of mind and heart in any particular circumstance may be rather deeply culturally influenced. That which enlightens one person may not the next, and may in fact appear bizarre, quaint or laughable to those whose culture has not prepared them to be receptive. Failing to be enlightened on demand does not render one less than human but surely marks that one as human, wouldn't you agree?
Originally Posted by ephraimanesti
"Dogs" and "swine" refer to heathen peoples, but would also include Jews who do not practice virtue as per the teachings of the Law. According to the Early Church Fathers, dogs are those so immersed in evil that they show no hope of change, while swine are those who habitually live immoral and impure lives in rebellion against God's commandments. The pearls are the inner mysteries of the Christian faith, including Christ's teachings--think "The Pearl of Great Price. These holy things are to be kept from the immoral and unrepentant, not to protect the holy things themselves, for obviously Christ needs no protection and His teachings are safe for all eternity in the heart of the Father and the hearts of believers. Rather, the exhortation is that we protect the faithless people themselves from the condemnation that would result from their holding God's Word in contempt.
Let me say that I find your explanation less distressing than some I have read. There is a seed of hope in it.
It has been suggested to me on numerous occasions that my distress at a presumed Christ drawing a line between the (fully human) possessors of pearls and those whom he calls dogs and swine, is that I have somehow misunderstood where he was drawing that line--that if I were to understand who actually falls below that line and how unlike the possessors of pearls they truly are, I would be able to accept the teaching.
It is a human proclivity to draw such lines and a human proclivity to shift them as circumstances dictate. Surely we do not need a Christ to teach us this. There is nothing profound, nothing transcendent, in the drawing of lines and the dehumanizing of those who fall below the expedient line of the moment--those whom we can deem as other.
The proclivity itself, common to mankind yet culturally shaped, produces a particular two-edged injustice that keeps the possessor of pearls in his place as surely as it keeps the presumptive dogs and pigs in theirs. There is a severe cost in grokking this. Doing so will surely alienate one from one's own culture and all of the manufactured comforts of that culture, making of one a stranger in a strange land, a wanderer with no place to lay one's head. Yet, it does make all of the human race into one's family, even those chained raving to tombstones, those caught in the act of adultery, those ritually unclean and therefore ritually infectious.
Perhaps it is a fault in me that I have no time for mysteries that must be spoken rather than lived, that once grasped can somehow be held secret as if we would not involuntarily shine with them.
"The nature of things is measured by the interior disposition of the soul; that is, the kind of person one is will determine what one thinks of others...One who has attained a genuine prayer and love no longer puts things in categories. He does not separate the righteous from the sinners, but loves all equally and does not judge them, just as God gives the sun to shine and the rain to fall on both the just and the unjust." --by Nikitas Stethatos, from the Philokalia
*thank you for the quote teshi*
Originally Posted by ephraimanesti
The same idea is put forth in the story of the Gentile woman of great faith--Matthew 15:21-28--in which story, having evoked this woman's love and persistent faith, Christ reveals her humility--the greatest of all virtues in God's eyes. Christ's hesitancy was not a lack of compassion, but a conscious means of revealing the virtues of this woman, both to the disciples and onlookers and for her own sake. Humility is lacked by both dogs and swine; by exhibiting it for all to see, our Lord showed her to be neither in God's eyes.
Interesting. When I read this story, I don't see her as humble so much as clever in driving home her point. My sense is that Jesus was "got" and didn't much mind it. It fact, I think it delighted him, which goes a way toward softening my opinion of him.
Originally Posted by ephraimanesti
This idea can be seen in the Church itself from the beginning in that non-believers were not allowed access to the deeper teachings of the Church until they became cleansed through Baptism after which, as Paul observed, "Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."(Colossians3:11)
Again, I am not enamored with the idea of initiations and secret teachings. If Christianity does not work right down to one's fingertips, then it needs to be re-examined in the light of day.
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The House of Self-Collection
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
This is heart-breaking to see you so misperceive and misunderstand the TOTALITY of God's Love towards ALL due to a misinterpreting of a few sentences taken out of context whose meaning is diametrically opposed to that which is mistakenly and inaccurately applied to it.
I have to live day to day with the common perception of this passage that allows those who disagree with my theology to call me dehumanizing names and subject me to the real-life consequences of being thus dehumanized. It gives me no comfort to imagine that the passing down of pure, secret teachings is taking place in an unseen citadel of holiness amongst the properly initiated so that I won't be inadvertently condemned by them.
He should not have said what he said in Matthew 7. He should not have told the stories of separating out mankind, as in Matthew 25, in the manner in which he did. These stories have alienated human against human in his name. It breaks my heart. I cannot tell you how much. I have twisted my mind into knots searching for an apologetic that will allow me to trust the gospels again.
Originally Posted by ephraimanesti
Have you not personally met Jesus yet and seen and experienced His Heart of Love for all for yourself?
I take it from your font that you want me to be sure to read this part.
I have met what seems to me to be the partial Christ of the gospels. I have met a Christ who can be profound one minute yet culturally bound and, it would seem, even a little afraid of his own message the next. I have met a Christ upon whom such depths of human affect have been heaped that his less than perfect revelation seems to be a danger. I do not know how to respond to him, at this juncture, except to be extremely cautious.
Originally Posted by ephraimanesti
MY DEAR BROTHER--WHERE DID THIS STUFF COME FROM???? Not from the God of Love of Whom we are speaking! Are you perhaps allowing the evil one to play with your mind and turn you from the Light?
I am not sure I understand the question.
Originally Posted by ephraimanesti
REGROUP!--MEET YOUR LORD FACE TO FACE AND SEE HIM AS HE IS!!!!!!!!!
YOU ARE HIS BROTHER!
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE THE TRUTH!
I hope I am happy to regroup. I do want to see things as they truly are, or as close as my human perceptions and thought processes allow.
Your wording seem to convey a sense of urgency. I feel this is important, but not urgent. My life will of necessity bleed into that of those who will come after me. I can only hope to carry on my little part with as much integrity as I can muster.
Originally Posted by ephraimanesti
A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim
I hope the fact that I have described my thoughts in strong terms has not unduly distressed you (or placed me on the wrong side of a CF rule). If we cannot place the hard questions then there is little hope of understanding one another, little hope of enlightenment.
Peace.
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The House of Self-Collection
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
C. G. Jung Psychology and Religion
Last edited by InkBlott; 15th August 2009 at 11:34 PM.
Reason: Edited for less pomposity. :)
I know I'm late to the party, but my personal study on Matthew 7:6 leads me to believe that the swine and dogs are symbolic to stiff-necked and stubborn enemies of the gospel who are unworthy to have it preached unto them.
A pearl, represents the Gospel. In all logical sense, it wouldn't be reasonable to preach the Gospel, "cast the pearl", before Stiff-necked and stubborn enemies of the Gospel.
__________________ 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"
Things aren't always what they seem. It depends on the person who is viewing them.
Jeremiah 17:13 ".....the Lord, the fountain of living water."
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